Episode 62 - whitney williams-Black: Preparing for The Premester in Fertile

whit (they/she) is a Black, queer, full spectrum doula who is beginning the trying to conceive journey with her partner. In today's episode, whit gives their takeaways and insight gained from joining Fertile earlier this year.  In today's episode, Josie and whit go into paying attention to your body's cycle, the impact of noticing your elemental deficiencies and tending to them, being intentional with family planning, and thinking with the end in mind.

[ID: A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 62: whitney willams-Black @wanttobewelldoula and Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier @intersectionalfertility.]

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A statement from whit: “I definitely conflated Oshun’s two partners into one story. It doesn’t truly change the feel I get from Oshun or her story and the way I share it in this podcast episode but I wanted y’all to know that I caught it. As always I encourage people to get curious and learn more for themselves, my favorite YouTuber tells the stories of Oshun most beautifully in her collections of videos called ‘Orisha Stories.’ Feel free to take a listen.”

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Episode transcript:

Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.

[00:00:00] Josie: I am Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our Whole Selves.

Before we get started with our episode today, I have got some really good news for you. My five week online program called Fertile, which centers queer, trans and non-binary folks with wombs who are trying to conceive, and also healthcare practitioners and support people, including doulas who support folks who are trying to conceive, registration is now open for Fertile.

This is a program that I run twice a year, so now's your chance if you've been waiting to join us. I'm really excited for you to come into the program and to meet you and work with you. There is a sliding scale for all and scholarships are available for Black, Indigenous, and People of the Global Majority, and there are also payment plans.

And really cool is that your partner or partners can join for free. So go ahead and head over to intersectionalfertility.com/fertile and read all the details. If you have any questions, feel free to email me, josie@intersectionalfertility.com, or you can use my contact form on my website, which. Y'all. I found out today that my contact form was missing on my website.

I don't know what happened, so I really apologize if you've been trying to get ahold of me. I don't know how long it was missing for. I feel like it's been gone for months. So anyway, I was shocked to figure that out. I just happened to be kind of tinkering around on the backend of my website today and saw that my contact form was no longer there. So I put it back up today. So now it's there.

You can contact me through my website or email me if you have any questions at all, and we'll have live sessions. During the program, you also get five weeks worth of content in the form of videos and downloads and spreadsheets and all kinds of different resources and different forms that you get to keep, and then the live sessions will be an hour every week.

And those are in Q&A format, so you can get all your questions answered and connect with your classmates as well. And those will always be recorded if you're unable to make them live. So to check out those dates, those are also up on my website now. So again, head over to intersectional fertility.com/fertile and join us in the program. We get started on September 4th.

whitney williams-Black began studying power, reproductive justice, and feminist movements in 2015, she obtained a BA in gender and women's studies with a minor in social justice from Hollands University. Since graduation, whit has become a certified full spectrum doula with Ancient Song Doula Services in New York City.

whit also completed Whole Body Pregnancy childbirth educator training in 2021. Professionally, they have served as a community educator and program manager facilitating workshops on reproductive justice, consent, pleasure, and developing programming to engage youth in Black BIPOC communities. In April, 2020, whitney married their love and returned to the South to continue combating food insecurity and Black gestational mortality and morbidity in their forever home.

Their cooperative network now serves Durham, rural North Carolina counties, and virtually across the USA as a full spectrum doula. whitney is dedicated to serving those around her and all those who call on them. Early in whitney's birth work journey, she felt the call to serve Black mamas, young parents, poor LGBTQIA plus and QTBIPOC people in the south.

Her goals are to one day become a community midwife and to open birth centers and community gardens across the southeastern states of America. Welcome whit.

[00:04:40] whit: Hi. I'm so excited. I love when people read my bio, I have to say. It just feels so soft and I feel so grateful to be, Yeah. Living this life and doing this work.

So thanks for reminding me, so much gratitude.

[00:04:56] Josie: Totally. I know what you mean. That's so neat to just kind of hear it all in one place, like Yeah.

[00:05:03] whit: Really living life. So, yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:05:08] Josie: Of course. So happy to have you here. So will you share with us your pronouns and where you're located? And any sort of land acknowledgement if you'd like.

[00:05:18] whit: Ooh, yes. Oh my goodness, my pronouns, they, she I do oscillate, or fluctuate between the two. We are on Lumbee land, we're in Durham, North Carolina. We're blessed to own this little piece of land. Can't wait to get it back to the Indigenous folks when the tide turns.

I'm from Birmingham, Alabama, and if I'm not mistaken, that is Creek Muskogee Land, and I take Birmingham, Alabama wherever I go with me.

[00:05:47] Josie: So will you share about the work you do as a full spectrum doula and what your vision is for the future?

[00:05:53] whit: Full spectrum doula. You know, we're coming up with so many words to describe the work that we're doing. So what that means for me, is that I am really exploring the entire reproductive lifespan. When they talk about reproduction in history, they talk about what the long reproductive life it's like, well, we're still having that. That has not stopped. That has not changed.

So I've had folks reach out to me and ask questions about, Hey, my niece just started her period, and what can we do? And being a thought partner in that all the way down to, hey, you know, we've experienced pregnancy loss. We'd like someone to stand in with us, to witness us, you know, just that span. But so abortion, miscarriage and loss is a part of it.

Abortion is another piece of some of the work that I do. Birth, prenatal education, nourishment throughout the like, childbearing year is all kind of my jam. Oh, and fertility Which for me, especially like centering Black, queer and trans people in fertility, that means talking about health and healthcare and how we access healthcare. What it feels like to do that and how do we get well during that time.

And I'm excited to talk about all of that today.

[00:07:08] Josie: Yay. So before we kind of dive in, today we're gonna talk about your experience in Fertile for folks who might be wondering if it's for them, and then also we're gonna talk about the Premester, which I'm excited about too. So we'll get to both of those things.

So what compelled you to want to join Fertile and what did you hope to get out of it?

[00:07:30] whit: Oh, we were ready to have a baby. Like, we're like, nah, it's time. And hopefully because of who we are, the things that we'll learn on this journey together are things that we can share with our Good friends, because we have, and we've met so many Black BIPOC Young, you know, folks wanting families like wanting to build a family.

This idea of a new Black family. So like we were on that journey and still are on that journey. We were ready. So that was why. And it came, you know, it went across the birth streets and I was like, babe, I think we should do this. And my partner Syd was like, okay, you want me to do it with you? Because to him it was like, oh, is this just another doula training?

And I have actually done another fertility doula training with BADT that you were also a part of. So you had already been my teacher. So when I just, you know, saw this robust program, I was like, no, yeah, we're gonna go like, let's figure out how to do that. And then, you know, I just really saw the advertisement and it said this is for BIPOC, like we are prioritizing QTBIPOC people.

And we were like that. That's us. Hi. So that was it. Cool. And then what was the other question?

[00:08:50] Josie: Oh, just like what did you hope to get out of it?

[00:08:52] whit: I really wanted more, I was looking for the intimacy part. Yeah. I was looking for the intimacy part. So like, how do I get my partner hands-on with me? I want for my partner to feel connected, especially as Black queer people.

Like we require some support. And I really required that, so I was like, how can I get my partner involved? And so my partner said, actually also ended up taking the course. We both planned to certify. We cannot wait. I think we both got that out of it. I think what we didn't know we were gonna get out, it was like this wealth of information about nourishing this time.

And about the emotional literacy part. We have really been working through that together. And then of course the intimacy and like, you know, the acupressure points and some things we've learned from pelvic therapy and chiropractic care and acupuncture care. You know, just kind of like melding all that together.

You really gave us a language because we were already kind of like accessing those things just because we had insurance. But you get, like this course Fertile gave us like, this is how this works together. This is the intention behind why you're gonna go and see these people. And man, that has, that has also really fed me during this premester time.

[00:10:16] Josie: Oh, that's so cool. That's awesome to hear. And did you have any hesitations about joining Fertile?

[00:10:22] whit: It's a hesitation that I have with almost every doula training that I go to. And so it was good to have those taken care of at the beginning. There are a lot of doula trainings that I go to because I'm a birth nerd, because I do have this BA and so I do come across a lot of like academic spaces.

I'm always worried am I gonna be what I call in my Southern collective, we talk about this all the time, is the fly in the milk?

[00:10:52] Josie: Yes.

[00:10:53] whit: Yeah. Am I gonna be the one to stand out and you know that? While we are able to make community where we're planted, and that is a skill. There's also something about affinity that is so strong when you are in that kind of place.

And that spot in your journey. So, whew. We were a little worried, but at the same time I was like, Josie's gonna protect us. This is Josie's space. We're gonna be seen and we're gonna be protected. And if we ever, if we do have to say something, which I don't see in, you know, some other spaces is that I know that it will, I'll be trusted and I'll be believed.

And if there, if there is an issue, I know we're gonna be taken care of. So, nah.

[00:11:35] Josie: I just got goosebumps. That's so nice to hear. Thank you.

So I would love to talk about your actual experience in Fertile. What changes have you noticed in your body, mind, spirit or emotions, either since participating in Fertile? Cause you were in Fertile in the spring, this past spring, or during Fertile, if you can remember.

[00:11:58] whit: So again, I had language to talk about it, right? Like I found myself talking about this with my friends who aren't queer. Who are queer, but who aren't in a place where they're trying to conceive. Without having to tell all my business to.

I could just kind of say, especially the spring, I would really kind of explored the follicular phase. I'm like, what is it like to not be bleeding, not be in the winter to come out into the spring and you know, that kind of breath. But I had to wait to talk about it with my friends because they're also in cycles in some way.

And so we would kind of just talk about it that way, and that was really cool. But the things that I noticed in my body during that time, like I said, I started paying more attention to the phases in my cycle and what I was eating and when certain emotions would come up. I got myself a journal.

This journal is awesome. It has literally everything in it. But, so I really kind of sat with myself during that time too, and I was like, yo, like what's up with you family? Like what's going on? What's going on in the body, and I would just gently prompt myself with that question almost every day. I'm not gonna say every day, but most days.

And I gotta a point where I had some really, like foundational acknowledgements. And one was I have clinical depression, and that's something that we quell with you know antidepressants. Cause I, that's what feels safe for me. But I also had an anxiety that wasn't, I didn't feel like I wanted to go on meds for it, but I knew I wanted to tend to it.

And I noticed that my anxiety was also about like, basic needs. So food insecurity is a big thing here, or food waste and the environmental impact of gentrification like that is here. I was like, Ooh, I, I don't think that's me. The depression might be me because grief.

Because grief. Okay. But the anxiety doesn't feel like me. That feels like, so I started taking milky oat as a tincture. And I would really kind of like indulge in it in my luteal phase. And like, so paying attention to stuff like that. So that's just one example. But after taking, you know, really sitting with that milky oat tincture that I actually got from a midwife friend of mine, I was talking about this with her, and she was like, she was like, here, just take this and, and add honey to it and like seeing what you think.

And it was so deeply nourishing. And so, one, two, again, the language that we had to talk about it, I have a deficiency in my earth. And I'm an earth sign through and through. I'm a Taurus Sun, Taurus Moon, Taurus Venus, my partner is a Taurus Venus, my partner is a Taurus rising. Like there's, we got a lot of earth.

So to, so to have the earth be imbalanced we were like, oh God, we gotta fix it. So yeah. So tending to like the way that we nourish ourselves, and especially the work that I was doing in nonprofits, in the environmental justice world too, I took that very personally. So I started connecting with like local Black farmers who didn't have the money to like certify with USDA organic, but like, I'm going to their farm, seeing the way they're growing this food.

They have a tradition of the way that this food has nourished the state of North Carolina for centuries. And that's just that family's business. And so got really connected with them and did some really wonderful projects there. And I just noticed, like when I started really asking myself the question, paying, being curious about the answer on my body using medicines, you know, given to me by my loved ones and eating.

That's a big one. Really started to tend to that earth element. I mean, things have just really softened and it's been really good because before, like I said, the earth was imbalanced and we were hungry for something. And we kind of found that. And we're still still chewing on, chewing on all that you've given us in the course. It's something that we are really taking our time through but we really enjoyed it.

[00:16:23] Josie: That's so cool. And I love how you were able to separate what was yours and what was coming from the community around you. That's so powerful. Like realizing, oh, this anxiety isn't mine, it's not coming from inside of me. It's, it's situational.

[00:16:43] whit: That was a hard one. But I really encourage all the folks who are kind of in a transitional spot to just take notice. Slow down. And everybody who knows me, like they know, I'm just super blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Very, very quick, very, you know, but in this time I've really been learning to pace myself and to take notice and not be on high alert, but, You know, take notice and write the things down and journal and ask myself questions and ask other people questions and just see where we are.

Because that's a skill that I think I'm going to be taking into parenthood. Yes. Oh my gosh. When it's time again. And, and we have such a, just to say one more thing, we have such a interesting relationship with parenthood at this house. Just personal inner child healing work that me and my partner are doing.

But also we do have an 18 year old in our custody. And he's my younger brother. And like I said, we got, we got parent things that we're healing over here. And so now that he's 18, you know, he's leaving and he's going off to college and you know, me and Syd are empty nesters, which is again, really just building onto that little, you know, relationship we have with parenthood.

So too in our journey with parenting Jo, through some real formative years and some real rough years. You know, we've really done a lot.

[00:18:21] Josie: Yeah. Wow. Totally. That's a whole other perspective to bring into this.

[00:18:26] whit: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So we're excited for it, I think.

[00:18:30] Josie: I love that. And what were some of the ways that you felt that your earth was out of balance? Like what was kind of the comparison between feeling it out of balance versus feeling it more in balance?

[00:18:43] whit: I'm one of those people, we talk about these girls all the time on the internet, and I'm one of them that would make it through the day with just an iced coffee. It was so bad, so much sugar.

And we don't even know where that coffee came from and that's it. And it's sitting out all day. So it's just hot, just like the dairy and it's, maybe a soy milk, which was also not great for me with PCOS, with like, oh, it was so bad. So like, that was me. Stumbling around, running after the kid, making sure the chores are done, making sure that like the kid took his antidepressants, making sure I took mine, did I? I don't know. Didn't drink enough water to be able to remember.

I mean, It was a time, and then we sat, we would sit down for dinner every day because that was just tradition. But now we sit down, we try to sit down for more than one meal together. And you know, now I get up during the day and I have a routine and I'm stretching and I found that out.

If you follow me on Instagram, you already know routines have saved my life, but I take routines a step further and, and now I'm practicing what I'm preaching and I have my own rituals and then, you know, tending to a garden, being in a farm, that will teach you a rhythm to your day. Because when you pull that corn out of the fields, it can really only sit for a day or two right before you really need to tend to it.

When the spring comes, when the summer comes and the mint that you've planted is all over your box. You gotta get out there and harvest it and then you gotta bring it inside, wash it, and set it out to dry. Like, you have to be active and I wanna be active. I've found myself like wanting that now. When six months ago I didn't have that kind of energy.

And on top of being a birth worker, right. So like, we are holding a lot. Pelvic floor therapy was another thing too that really shifted it for me. My pelvic floor therapist, shout out to Mbong Henry a Black pelvic floor therapy here in the medicine triangle.

But I mean, man, like one of the best and she just so gently like, spoke with me about like, Hey, you gotta find a rhythm and a flow for you because you're holding onto a lot. And it's making your pelvic floor tight. And it's making you uncomfortable and, and really encouraged me to find a way to like, let some things go.

So beautiful healthcare, marrying that healthcare, but also being seen again by a provider who you can build an affinity with. They could see you, they see you as a person. Right. They're willing to listen, you're willing to talk. Good friends talking with me. You know about this is how you grow things in your little garden and this is how you, do a little bit of organic food.

That you can't afford at the Harris Teeter or the Wegmans. 'cause Lord knows I can only go in there every other month for one or two special things. Right. But this is how you grow that spinach. This is how you grow that kale. You know, some of those really deep, nourishing leafy greens are the things that have the most pesticide.

So how do you grow that for yourself? And so all of that kind of flow talk to has been the thing that I feel, you know, has been has really changed. It's living a life, you know? And I, it makes me wonder sometimes just to quickly touch on like generational things. Mm-hmm. It's like, oh, how was my grandma living?

How was her mama living? Her mama had nine kids. Phew, In the deep south, you know, and that, but that's that generation. My mother's mother's mother had nine kids. My mother's father's mother had 13. So fertility too, I had to reclaim that. Fertility is my birthright. I'm queer. I'm queer. You know, I need a little bit of support, but fertility is, is my birthright and I really do believe that.

[00:23:03] Josie: Wow. That is so cool and powerful to think about that, those lineages. And also how recovering or rediscovering that connection with the earth. Has helped bring that earth element into balance. That's so cool, so poetic and lovely. Yeah. I love how you said it, like, brings structure to your day. Like it just, you know, it just does. Yeah.

[00:23:33] whit: Yeah. It is rigorous. More rigorous than school, it feels like. Yeah, and I did, I'm into doing like accelerated programs, so I'm really thinking about, you know, moving into midwifery and the like, I can't do another B, I can't do another bachelor's, so I have to be accelerated program 14, 15 months.

I'm like, oh yeah that's rigorous, I can do that. The farm is rigorous.

[00:24:01] Josie: Yes. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I know, I did some weeding the other day and I could not like walk for like three days. I was so sore. So rigorous.

So, let's see. What features did you like best about Fertile and why? Like the videos or the handouts or the live sessions or our private qmunity?

[00:24:29] whit: I love the private qmunity. I can't wait to like show up more. My goodness. Probably the slides, like being able to print out the slides. I'm a Virgo Rising y'all. My partner's a Virgo moon.

[00:24:44] Josie: More earth. Oh my gosh.

[00:24:46] whit: So lemme tell you just real quick. Little story. We enrolled for the course. And I'm like, come on, Syd. Like I don't wanna pull you along. Like, I want you to, I want you to be invested too. Like, this is our journey together. Come on. And he's like, he's an Aries sun. I'm a Taurus so I'm like, come on. But we, but we both have the Taurus, we both have the rigor.

So he comes home, he like, I guess he went all like throughout the the course, printed everything off hole punched it, put the dividers, put it in a binder, brought it home. When I, I won't say how that night went, but I'm gonna tell y'all that was the sexiest thing I've ever seen. I was like, oh yeah? A whole binder just ready to go for the first class? Cool.

[00:25:42] Josie: Oh my gosh, I love that so much.

[00:25:45] whit: So I'd have to say the slides were probably the best and, and like I say, we still chew on that. Like we'll come back to that. We've been stretching together in the morning too, which is also very steamy. So it's just nice to like ask each other one of those journal questions. He's not a journaler I am. But to like talk about them out loud and it get, it's very poetic. It's real nice. We really enjoyed ourselves.

[00:26:13] Josie: Oh my gosh. I love that. I think that's the best feedback I've heard so far.

[00:26:18] whit: Because I'll say like, as a doula doing this course, yes, go for it. You're gonna learn so much to like support other families. And get real specific to about who you wanna serve because that has also really colored the way that our community has received us. It's been so good. It's great to do it as a doula.

Do it for you too, like mm-hmm. Do it for you too. Bring your partner along. Oh my gosh. We should have brought, we have a baby mama, the mother of my godson, who is a seven year old that I claim like he's my child because he is my child.

But we, my partner and I co-parent with my best friend and we joke, you know, we joke, it's like, oh, we're a throuple. One day we'll have to come out to Jason and let him know that the way that we parent him is so queer. The three parents that we have in this is so queer. Our co-parenting is so awesome.

So we should have had her come in and do it. But she's, she's got her own reproductive journey, so I know she'll be at a point sometime when she'll want this and I'll want it for her enough to like do it again.

[00:27:29] Josie: Totally nice. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Partners can join for free if folks don't know. Partners are invited to join Fertile for free. And no matter how many partners you have, if you have more than one, they can all join.

And then was there any specific content in the program that you liked the best or found the most useful?

[00:27:50] whit: Hmm, let's see. Lemme go back to my notes. Ooh, okay. The water. Though, the earth side was big for us. I learned so much about my body when we talked about the kidney. I'm, like I said, still chewing on that. But to, to nourish the kidneys, avoiding over exercise, that is something that I felt victim to. Oh my gosh. I also started a pre prenatal yoga teacher training, PYTT, I think.

We have to talk about that more with our pregnant folks. We have to talk about that with folks who are recovering. Don't overexert yourself because we're talking about balance that was so big for me in like a practical sense. But also that the kidney is a fertility blueprint. Really talking about moving into the authentic self, our essence, our sweet water.

That also goes back to an orisha kind of story. It reminds me about Oshun. We talked a little bit about this too in our cohort about the peacock and that Oshun is the, the Yoruba goddess of the sweet waters, of fertility, of love, of baby mamas. She's the Orisha for baby mamas. You know, and it's really about that kind of imbalance in the story of Oshun and Shango.

Their love is so, oh, for all my, I really do feel for all of my straight girlfriends because like, it's a story that like comes up so many times in love, but she loved him so he wouldn't, he was almost like ashamed into the jungle. He was so ashamed of himself and he would only come out for her.

Like she went and got this big warrior that no one else that he would see no one else. She went into the jungle, got this warrior, picked him up, gave herself too much of herself away, no balance. And he hurt her and, and, and so she ran to the moon and, ugh. Just this whole story, so.

I was so, I was so blown away by just learning so much about the kidney and the kidney balance and Yeah. Really thinking about those deficiencies too, because that's where we talk about deficiencies so much that I finally understood it. So yin, but also I have a yang deficiency. And so again, about movement, about flow, about, balance, about not giving too much of yourself away, keeping something for you.

That was so healing for me too, because when I say these things out loud, now I think about my mother. And I think about her mom, and I think about that. It, it really is a generational story of love, of loving Black men, which is a story we can tell, you know? Of learning to love ourselves more. Of having children with those men because, dear God.

The Orisha for Baby Mamas.

[00:30:58] Josie: Oh, that's so beautiful. Where did that story originate from? Like what traditions is that from?

[00:31:03] whit: So there are lots of different traditions. And this is where we get into like African spirituality, which is where I would have to defer to like a mentor of mine. I think of Omisade Burney-Scott, who's also the founder of the Black Girls Guide to Menopause. And is local to Durham. Oh my gosh. You all should talk. You would love her. She could tell you about all of that.

But it's a Yoruba oral tradition and then, you know, as Black folk have become a diaspora with the Transatlantic slave trade and as the Americas and the Caribbean were colonized we also see things like Ifa, Santeria. These are religions, hoodoo, voodoo, you know. Not all of them have orishas but this is now like the canon of story.

That a version of that story may come from if you're listening to this and you're like, that's not, that's not how my people tell the story of Oshun and Shango. That's fine. That's fine. That's the way I heard it in the back alleys of Birmingham, Alabama in the early two thousands. Excuse me. So yes. So it reminded me of that story. I really enjoyed Earth Water.

Ooh, wood was also a good one for the doulas, I'll say. Because we have got to protect our energy in that way. You can only advocate for folks as much as they want advocated for. So they were all pretty great. I could go one by one by one by one. They were all pretty great.

[00:32:36] Josie: Oh, that's cool. Yeah, so every week, for those who don't know, in Fertile, we go through one of the five elements in Chinese medicine. So yeah. So one week would be dedicated to water, which is what we're talking about. And then, yeah, each week we'd go through Earth and then I forget the order. Metal, water, wood, fire, I think. Something like that. Yeah.

That's cool to hear how impactful water was in particular. Yeah, I do think that's such a good one for folks realizing that we do have like finite resources of ourselves, you know, those precious resources that come from us, like our time and our energy that are, you know, really hard to replenish. That's so nice to hear that, that landed for sure.

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How have you benefited from participating in Fertile? Did you have any big revelations or light bulb moments? I know we've kind of been talking about some, but any others that come to mind?

[00:35:35] whit: Yeah, I think that my biggest light bulb moment was thinking about the premester. And how we can choose, we have to choose now in this post-Roe world. We have to choose and get real intentional. About our wellbeing, about our health about our wealth. About, about generational story, about generational trauma. Generational trauma, generational trauma. But how we can really start to address those things too, as we get into conversation with our ancestors and our elders and our siblings about what we know to be true about our family stories, especially for queer folks.

So much of us, so many of us are unknowingly, unconsciously taking a lot of the things that we've seen in straight relationships and putting them into our queer ones. And really not truly understanding why there's a disconnect. And, but also the premester too for me is about the disconnect from the body.

A lot of us are suffering in pain, either chronic pain or again, like pain and emotional suffering that is, is about our environment and we wanna be able to talk about discernment in that way. Especially because at this point I've seen so many families become families. I wanna see people have that running start.

I wanna see people get into it because parenting can be, when we are supported by each other, a really, really intense and gorgeous transition into life. We don't have to do it the way we've been doing it. And the premester was cool because, especially me being queer, it's kind of a luxury for me, like I am choosing parenthood very explicitly. And so, How can I just make sure that I give myself the best running start? That's how I think about it.

[00:37:49] Josie: I love that. I love thinking of the premester as giving yourself a running start. That's so good. That's exactly what it is. Yeah. And you're so right that in a post Roe world that it's not only queer folks that need to be intentional anymore.

[00:38:07] whit: Please. Please. Especially as an abortion doula. I see the limits. To this infrastructure that we have. Yeah. We're sending people it's not just across state lines no more. It's out of the region. And while we like to push mutual aid, like mutual aid is the only resource. But mutual aid is limited. Because when we're leaning on each other and it's like we've also got to really understand the economy.

Behind, look, I don't even wanna go there because then I started sounding kind of hotep and I don't wanna do that. But, but there's, there's an economy behind this American health system and it's failing us, and I know it to be true in abortion in the same way I know it to be true in miscarriage and loss.

I know it to be true in pregnancy in the same way I know it to be imbalanced and postpartum and fertility care for Black queer people. Like, I just, I see it on that plane. Yeah. So I'm really trying to, without doing all that kind of philosophizing with folks, I love being in spaces like this as I feel like we can talk theory and, and, and that's what we'll do.

But when I'm in front of my family, it's like, oh, we're, it's, you know, we're getting people to care. We're, we're getting people into care. So that's, that's kind of how it's also felt too. A sense of urgency that again, we're finding our pace through.

[00:39:31] Josie: Yes, that sense of urgency. I feel that, yeah, that's, that's such a good way of putting that. So for folks who don't know what a premester is, I did not make up this term. I learned it from somewhere so many years ago, and I don't remember where now. I think it was in a book that I read, a fertility book.

But it's basically that that trimester that is before you actually get pregnant is the gist of it. But a pre-master could be more than three months. It could be four to six months, it could be a year or two. Yeah, it can be any stretch of time, but it's basically kind of shifting your mindset to already sort of counting that time as part of your pregnancy.

So it's like, how would I live? How would I nourish myself? What changes or shifts would I make? Basically if I were pregnant now, 'cause, 'cause this is the beginning of my pregnancy right now, even if I'm not pregnant.

[00:40:32] whit: I think too, the premester is so cool because it was like super hopeful. Like, I'll kind of show you what I drew. I mean like, it's all pink and red and deep purple and brown and it's got gold, like little sparkles on it. Like, that's how it felt to me when I first heard you say that word. I was like, whoa. Like that's groovy as hell. Like I can push that into a distance right now. Oh yeah. And the thing that I would encourage people to consider is think about your premester. With your fourth trimester in mind.

[00:41:13] Josie: Yes, yes.

[00:41:15] whit: Because that's what we're getting to. We're not just getting to pregnancy and then to labor and then to birth. We're getting to the other side of that.

Yes. So what if we started this whole thing around all the way, six months before? What could we, what could we do in that time? And so I wrote down a couple of things. Things that I'm excited to like develop and share and co-create with folks. So if you're also listening to this on the airwaves and you're like, Ooh, I could add to that. Hit me up. Let's add to it.

But Afrospiritual journal prompts for unpacking your innate rhythm. Pro-Black teachings on food, food sovereignty, nourishment, and food waste. Or ecology. Fictional and exploratory writing from Black fems, auto ethnographies of birth workers, sowing seeds in the south. Ceremonies and rituals: a practical guide.

[00:42:29] Josie: Wow. Yes. Oh my gosh. Wow.

[00:42:32] whit: Some really fun stuff. I think too, a part of it because, Ooh, you, you kind of made me think of it when you said it is, Ooh, the financial piece. What happened if we started planning for this? Like not when we had baby fever at 101 degrees. What if we could start back there,

And like, have a financial plan because I'mma tell y'all I just wrote an article for BABT. On, on the state of the Black donor. $14,000, $15,000 for IVF. We already know that. That's, you decide to go that route. IUI, ICI if you do it with a midwife, a couple thousand out pocket, Sure. But frozen sperm, $3,000, $5,000 a pop right now. And you get like one to six choices of a Black donor. What?

[00:43:28] Josie: Right. Yeah.

[00:43:30] whit: Even if you're not even doing all of that, even if we're going like the queerest route, thinking of like trans women in their fertility. A surrogate? Egg donors? Money. Your own genetic material being tested and then washed for whatever procedure. Money, psych evals, money.

Resources, y'all.

[00:43:55] Josie: Yeah, totally.

[00:43:58] whit: So like, what if we started all of that planning in the premester? And it does, it doesn't have to just be financials, but I do think, yeah. When you hear people in there say, oh, we're trying to conceive. If you hear me look, let me make it about me. If you hear me and Syd say we're trying to conceive and it's been one or two years and you trying to figure out when this baby is coming out, send us a little bit of money.

Because we're saving, you know? And we have, we have plans for this home, this home that we've built in North Carolina. I was so sad because my little bureau behind me isn't painted, but it gets painted by my good friend Mercy in August. Aw. And so I'm like, yeah, you know, we, we had things we wanted to do for this house, but do we want a new bathroom, or do we want a baby? And I want a baby. It's about the same amount of money.

[00:44:52] Josie: Totally. Totally.

[00:44:54] whit: And that's, you know, that's fair. Like, that's fair. Because that's also about our health. That's also about our wellness. It's about Syd's mental health. That going through retrieving eggs, like that's a whole shift for folks. Even when I think about, you know, queer folks who want to, like, there are these programs now where you can like donate your eggs but at a very discounted rate because they'll take half and you donate half.

So that's a little more accessible. But again, like these things have such like high medical standards. Like you have to have never been depressed. I don't know a queer yet who isn't a bit depressed. Just a, just a little bit.

[00:45:37] Josie: Right, right. For sure. Wow.

[00:45:39] whit: So you know, these programs are also feeling like that's not like an option, but not the solution. And so yeah, the pre-mester is about talking about all of that.

[00:45:52] Josie: Yes. Oh my gosh. I have so much to say about all of this. I love so much of what you just said, but the thing that I'm like stuck on, I'm like, I didn't know frozen sperm has gone up so much. Has that gone up?

[00:46:06] whit: Yes. It's, I mean, a 30% increase in six months and it's gonna happen again.

[00:46:15] Josie: Ugh. I didn't know.

[00:46:17] whit: And that's on the East coast, now I don't know what the West Coast is doing, but that's the East Coast. It's tight. It's tight for these families, so it's a fertility doula. I'm having to beef my skill set up to talk with people about financial planning. What? I didn't get, and, and I'm gonna tell you what, yeah. I'm not getting into financial planning, y'all. We just had to find resources to send people to, because I can't.

[00:46:44] Josie: Yeah, that is, you're so right.

[00:46:47] whit: But it's a part of the practice now of like, Hey, how are we affording this? Hey, and then again, thinking with the end in mind, what does it mean when the money runs out? What is our relationship and dedication and intention and parenthood. Like I said, our first kid came to us. We weren't in the foster care system, but our first kid came to us from Alabama. Because of family things, you know?

So what is your relationship with parenthood? Let's start there. Let's do inner child healing in the premester. What else can we do in the premester? That's, that's what I'm here to ask you. What, what haven't I done yet in this premester that I should be thinking about?

[00:47:27] Josie: Wow. Gosh. I mean, I think you're really thinking about this in such a holistic, thorough way that I am so impressed by. Yeah. I mean, what comes to mind for me with the premester and how, how I first learned it was that it takes three to four months for a follicle to develop. So in my mind, and what I used to support and coach people through is like, you know, that three to four months before you get pregnant or that, or the past three or four months is kind of like a reflection of your present day fertility.

So thinking of that, like you're sort of, you really have to kind of expand your idea of time around trying to conceive, because things, it's almost like stars. Like how we see like the light from the stars is actually from however many years ago, by the time it reaches the earth. You know, it's sort of like that where it's like time gets really bent. You have to think about time in a different way. And I think probably one of the most common things I hear with folks who are trying to conceive and especially queer folks, is they didn't expect it to take so long.

And it really does, like, like you said, like with the financial piece, a lot of times you have to pause and collect more resources, but also like, there's just so much waiting. And time that happens between each try or between gathering your resources or recovering from an egg retrieval or, you know, maybe taking some time between them and the transfer.

If your body just needs that time, to recover. So it's like, I think people get frustrated so early on in the process because this is something that really challenges are levels of patience and that mentality that we're all taught, which is to like, go, go, go. And urgency.

That feeling of urgency again. And especially when it comes to like, our age, that we're conceiving at in the age of our eggs and, you know, all that stuff that we're taught, so, Yeah, I do feel like the premester is sort of this invitation to slow down, like you said too in the beginning.

Like, slow down, listen to yourself, listen to your body, settle in, and really question what you've been taught. Question your assumptions about time and about urgency. And also like, you know, like you said, kind of figure out what needs to be happening in order to get you to that fourth trimester. Like, I think that was so brilliant. I've never heard anyone say that, and that is so true.

[00:50:29] whit: My, look, I have to shout out my mother-in-law now. I call her my mother in love. Let me say that. Our relationship has been so warm and beautiful. She also doesn't know that we're trying to conceive. So I think it's so hilarious because like we're writing articles, and we're on podcasts, and we're talking about it, and she's just like, I'm just minding my business.

Whenever they gimme a grand babies, when they gimme one, I'm good. I love her. Hello Mama Serena, you'll listen to this actually one day when I'm pregnant, I'll start sharing this with you. But she taught me that. She taught me about my doula business, she was like begin with the end in mind. She's a Black lawyer, business coach, law teacher. Law professor. She's the shit. Lemme say that about my mother in love.

And I'm so proud too. I've become so much more proud about just her being our matriarch. I love her. Yeah. She taught me that. She said, begin this business with the end in mind. So I be, when I began Want To Be Well Doula Services, when it elevated Viola's Herb Garden, our Southern Apothecary, when those two merged, it became WellCare Collective.

When we started doing the Doula Work Study Project, it was began with the end in mind. So I love too, when people tell me, you're so on it. You're just, remember y'all, Virgo rising Taurus Sun, Taurus Moon. Okay. This is just, this is what you get. But also because of her, you know, she really helps me. You have to find somebody like that for you. You know, like somebody who just wants to be a thought partner. I'm also lucky I'm married to her kid who is like the dopest thought partner.

Like we just, we, we be talking a lot. And so I feel so held and chosen, and I'm excited to be the next person to like, bring more kids into this family. Like, for us, it's just different. And I get that not everybody has that, so it's been really cool. Oh, begin with the end in mind. Y'all, begin with the end in mind.

[00:52:34] Josie: Yes. Gosh, I think that's incredible advice. And I just remember thinking, because you do, you get this mentality of like, okay, get to the pregnancy part, and then when you're pregnant you're like, okay, I just gotta get through the birth. And I remember getting through my first birth and then being like chest feeding? What? Like, I hadn't even thought about it.

[00:52:59] whit: Bless your heart.

[00:53:01] Josie: Like now I have to figure this out? And my baby's crying and I'm like, I didn't even read a book about it. I wasn't even like thinking, 'cause I was just like, just get through the labor. That just felt like the end of the journey.

I was so unprepared for the fourth trimester and that is such good advice to be thinking about that and how the premester is going to set you up for that fourth trimester to sustain you through it.

[00:53:32] whit: And here's what I'll also say, because maybe there are fertility doulas who are like, yeah, I'm gonna try that. That sounds great. Here's to the families because I like to talk to y'all too. Okay, trust a doula. Entrust a doula, entrust a fertility doula. If you're listening to this, you got all the way through and your fertility doula sent you this. You got a good one. Okay. Because they're thinking about you.

And that's one of the wonderful things about being a full spectrum doula too. And I'm so, everything's just been so kismet the way that, like, my path has been laid out for me because I started in birth, my best friend's pregnant at the same time. So like, man, were we learning so much? Then that baby was born and, and we took off our first doula training in college.

And man, we learned so much. And then we started diving into postpartum and she went ham with postpartum. 'cause she was, that was her truth. And now she's an IBCLC and serving just, oh, she's, I love you Quay. But then, you know, more birth training in Brooklyn with Ancient Song and then like all these other just wonderful trainings and being taken in and loved on by the local Black midwife Mama Tina of Rocky Mountain, North Carolina.

Like when, when it's your calling full spectrum doulas, it's about learning the entire path. So that's the other thing. People are like, Hmm, full spectrum doulas. But for me, I, for me, it's different. It's been about learning the full path that we walk and being able as a doula to stand alongside people as they do it.

That has truly informed the way that I'm doing this work, so it's been really great. I was gonna say, I did wanna share just a couple of journal prompts with you. But I wanna hear what you were gonna say first.

[00:55:16] Josie: Yes please. Oh, I was just gonna say, I think you've done an incredible job at implementing all of this, but especially with the premester, I'm like, I feel like you took this into a whole other level. But I like, I can't think of any other thing that you could bring into it that you're not bringing into it. I mean, I'm like, very impressed.

[00:55:39] whit: Well, thank you. Look, I, as a childbirth educator, as a community educator, when I see good curriculum, I'm like, yo, like, that's it. Like, that's good, people are gonna learn, people are gonna learn from this because, it takes one seed being sewn into good, into good land, into pebbly lands, a mile down the road, and the wind will blow.

The wind will blow that seed onto good lands. It just takes a little bit. And we're at such a really wonderful, like cosmic place where like so many people are really attuning to these things. It feels so, it feels so good to be sought out to do it. So I love what I do. I love all my teachers.

Josie, thank you so much. Just, it's been so great. I know, I know we're gonna get into some closing things soon, but I did wanna do a couple of journal. Yeah. If you take Fertile, you're gonna have some intense journaling prompts that you should just embrace. Like, just, just, just do it. And if you're not trying to get pregnant actively during the course, treat this course like a premester.

Take your time. But so here, here are some of the things. If you're listening to this and you're wanting to take this to your journal, hope you've had a good time with this.

These are for folks that are trying to get pregnant again.

Can you tell me about the day you got pregnant? Where were you? What was your hair like?

These are for people who are trying to get pregnant. Now, tell me about the day, three months before your big fat positive or BFP. Without judgment, who is that person? What does that person's baseline look like? Can you tell me what their day looks like? Who did you love, work, spend your time with?

[00:57:46] Josie: Ugh. Beautiful.

[00:57:49] whit: I hope y'all have fun with those!

[00:57:51] Josie: I love that. It sounds like a poem too.

[00:57:54] whit: Doesn't it? I can't wait to tell people where they can keep up with me because I think because my friend and I wanna do something about like exploratory writing. Fictional and exploratory writing from Black fems.

That's what we're gonna do together. We don't know if it's gonna be workshops or a little podcast or what it's gonna be. Oh, but follow me and my best friends. And we'll be talk, we'll talk a little bit about my premester, I'll tell people my business. Hopefully I'll be pregnant around that time. So we'll take our time.

[00:58:28] Josie: What a brilliant idea. I love that so much. I am, my main passion in life is writing, hence all the journal prompts in Fertile. But like I love that. I love anytime writing can be taken to this, I think therapeutic level, you know, in terms of knowing yourself, in terms of nourishing yourself and Yeah, being part of that conception journey. For sure.

[00:58:56] whit: Oh, I do this weird thing where like I'll liken things to an Herb. So I say all the time, midwives are like marshmallow root.

[00:59:06] Josie: Okay. I love that.

[00:59:08] whit: I am clove. If you've ever met me, I'm clove personified. But writing feels like milky oats for sure.

[00:59:16] Josie: Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that. What a great skill that you have to be able to see the herb that goes with the thing. That's so neat.

[00:59:29] whit: Say it with me. Neuro spicy.

[00:59:33] Josie: Neuro spicy.

[00:59:34] whit: Neuro spicy. It's a real, if you embrace it, it's an okay thing.

[00:59:39] Josie: I love it. I love it. What a superpower, that is so cool.

This talk of the premester also is reminding me of this course that I took at the beginning of the year called Conversations with Spirit. And I took it with Montse and Pau, who are two incredible Indigenous Mexican healers. And one of our assignments was to do research as to what was happening nine months before we were conceived in our family, in our birth parents' life, in our lineage.

And it was so profound for me because I realized that I knew what was going on somewhat. I knew what was going on like during the time of my conception or during the time when I was like in the womb. But I didn't know any of the story that had happened nine months leading up to my conception. It was like, like completed so many you know, questions that I had had.

It answered so many things for me and I really, it felt like this huge healing experience to find that out. So kind of thinking about the premester also of like that is gonna have such an effect on your child or your children, you know, even into adulthood. I mean, I'm 44 and this was like still, you know, something that, you know, needed to be addressed and needed to be healed.

So anyway, I think that's the, you know, that made me think of that power of the premester.

[01:01:23] whit: And that's so deep, that's why I think those journal prompts are so cool, because whether it's like you casting that circle early and projecting it again, begin with the end of my project it. Or like when you think back, actually when my mom would tell me my birth story, she would always start with how she met my father.

And she would start and she would say, I literally have it written down underneath these, this is so, this is so right. Let me share it. My gosh. I have it literally written right down underneath these prompts and it says, she would always say, I was celibate a whole year before I met your father.

And the way she met them was actually through his sister. And man, when I think about who they were at that time and how they got together, it makes me chuckle like that. My goodness. Talk about the, the orishas and again, again, this circle that we are in that we get to choose to be in.

And especially this generation of people who, you know, are all about breaking generational curses and telling the truth. And, talking back to oppressive systems, we also have to remember that like, some of these, like stories that they say are in our DNA. That are about the way that the stars imprinted on you, the moment you were born, or if it's about, just that lineage, we gotta be so honest about it and we gotta call it out. And address it and sit with it.

If you have the luxury of being connected to blood family, talking to those people. Talk with them, and ask them those questions and get some grounding in that time because we talk about it all the time too, in the birth world is like, fem folks are folks with eggs. We have been in our grandmother's wombs. So if that is the case, think about who now is sitting with you. Whether they're new little spirits and stars or people who have been here before, that's so right.

And think about if, if three months from now I would be pregnant, man, am I living as the people in the church say, am I living right? Is it an okay time? If I found out I was pregnant today and I looked three months back, was I living right?

And look, not having the safety net of Roe v. Wade, I hope people are thinking that way. I really, really do. Otherwise we are in for it. And this new generation that's coming out of that. Boy, the foundation, I pray and I hope and believe that that's a generation of children that's gonna crumble.

Crumble that their feet, that at their feet, the system, the building will crumble because this generation two of children that we have now coming up in their prime, really. The 18 year olds, the youth. As they, as they say, the youth. They are about to do it. They are already having such robust conversations about what it means to live in a, to live in the world.

I say it like this, and then I'll let you go. To live in the world they've inherited, I'm not pointing no fingers, I'm not casting no judgments. I'm just saying they are inheriting a world. And they're at a place now in their development where, their about to shift the tide. I can feel it coming. Yes. And I'm super excited about it. So again, y'all start living right now, however it feels good to you. Eat your food and drink your waters. And take your walks, okay?

[01:05:20] Josie: I love it so much. It's so good.

Final question about Fertile and then I'm gonna ask you another, some more things. But what would you like to say to folks who might be thinking about joining Fertile?

[01:05:34] whit: Take it. Take the class. Take it. Take it. Take it. And I'll see you in the qmunity. Please. And you know, in all seriousness, if you're on a path you've noticed in yourself, whether it's a baby fever and you name it that, or just a deep desire to become a parent, man, this class for me felt like practicing faith and hope.

A lot of the times we don't know what we don't know. I find that so much in people who are, when I'm a childbirth educator and people come to me and they're like, oh, I kind of know something about Pitocin, but I don't know a lot.

And now, you know so much. So I kind of knew something about cycle syncing and seed cycling and my cycle. And of course, 'cause if you're trying to do this, I know for a fact you're paying attention to that period. Or your moon or your menses or whatever you call it. You're paying attention to it.

So you might as well, you might as well get a little more information if you know just a little bit. Now come, come on and get a little bit more information and get some tools on how to protect yourself through it. Because I know what it's like to not know when to pee on the stick and to pee on the stick too many days. And then you tire yourself out. Now you're burnt out, but you really want a baby.

[01:06:56] Josie: Yeah, totally. Totally.

[01:07:00] whit: You don't have to do that. And this too is, I mean, just take the class. Just take the class.

[01:07:08] Josie: I think the biggest, best perk for folks taking it will be that they will get to be in community with you.

[01:07:16] whit: Come take the class. It's an awesome class and you learn so much. You're gonna learn so much about your body.

[01:07:21] Josie: Yes. Yeah, totally. Ah, thank you for that.

So how can people find you, support you, buy all your things? Give us all the details.

[01:07:32] whit: Yes. Okay. So you can follow me on Instagram, @wanttobewelldoula, you can also follow Viola's Herb Garden, @violasherbgarden on Instagram. We do have a website, www.wellcarecollective.com. If you are interested in any of the podcast things we're doing, we're think of doing Patreon because we're also going to be giving away the recordings to all of our Doula Work Study Project meetings.

So the Doula Work Study Project is about supporting Black birth workers who are concerned about the sustainability of birthwork in the south. So we talk a lot. I mean, again, we talk business tidbits, begin with the end of mind. Yes. And, and how they're actually life lessons. But then we do talk a little bit financial planning with our doulas.

We talk a lot about business. We talk a lot about cooperative economic models. So if you're interested in any of that, you can follow us on our Patreon, www.tinyurl.com/reparations4reprowellness.

And I sent it. But yeah, so that's also where we'll do the what we, what we're calling a small podcast. More like a heart to heart series with my good, good girlfriend.

[01:09:00] Josie: Beautiful. I love it. Okay. And I'll include all of those links that you just said in the show notes for people for easy access. whit, you are just incredible, wonderful. Such a delight to share space with, and I enjoyed our conversation so much.

Thank you so much for being here.

[01:09:19] whit: Thank you. And thank you so much for all that you've given. I hope that it feels reciprocal the way that we take this work on. It's so good just to see us, to see those stars every class. That meant so much to us, so, for those of you who know, you know, and for those of you who are gonna take the class, you'll find out, but we felt like stars, like cosmically aligned the stars after this.

So thank you.

[01:09:51] Josie: Ugh. That's so nice to hear. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility Podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your whole self fertility method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz. If you like the show and wanna hear more, tap subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, and please leave us a review, it really truly helps.

The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and produced by Rozarie Productions with original music by Jen Korte.

All content offered through The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is created for informational purposes only, it is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.