Episode 49 - Tejal Patel: Decolonizing Yoga

Tejal (she/they) is a first-generation Indian American yoga teacher, writer, and podcaster, joining Josie on the podcast today for a discussion about intersectional yoga. This episode touches upon yoga as a lifestyle, how people can practice yoga on their fertility journey without culturally appropriating, and the evolution of the relationship between yoga and queerness. 

[ID: A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 49: Tejal Patel @tejalyoga and Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier @intersectionalfertility.]

Visit Tejal Yoga online studio and abcdyogi global community.

Listen to the Yoga is Dead Podcast, and Follow Tejal on Instagram.

Recommendations:
Race 2 Dinner
White Women: Everything You Already Know About Your Own Racism

Support the Intersectional Fertility Podcast on Patreon

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.

[00:00:00] Josie: Hey y'all. I'm excited to let you know I finally have a Patreon for the Intersectional Fertility Podcast. So if you go to patreon.com/intersectionalfertilitypodcast, you'll see you can join at three different membership levels. There's a membership level as low as $5 a month, that's kind of a tip jar option.

[00:00:21] There's a middle level called the Inner Circle for $10 a month, where you'll get video versions of each episode, 10 to 15 minutes, more of bonus content, some unedited bloopers and episode prep notes for each guest. So that's a really fun one. And then there's also a really cool membership level called New Bestie that includes all of that plus 30 minutes of monthly one-on-one support from me.

[00:00:50] Or we can just chat and hang out. Whatever sounds good to you. So I would love your support for this podcast. It would mean the absolute world to me, and it would really help me continue to bring you these episodes and keep the podcast going. So if you love this, Podcast or even if you just like it. I would love, love, love your support, so thank you so much.

[00:01:12] Again, it's patreon.com/intersectional fertility podcast.

[00:01:21] I am Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our Whole Selves.

[00:01:35] Tejal, she/they, is a first generation Indian American yoga teacher, writer, podcaster, and community organizer. She advocates for yoga through a social justice lens and educates and empowers individuals and groups around the world to do the same. 

[00:02:08] They accomplished this through the Tejal Yoga Online Studio, a revolutionary all South Asian teacher led yoga community focused on social justice actions and authentic, culturally rooted spiritual practices through the abcdyogi Global Community led by South Asian Yoga and mindfulness teachers, and through the Yoga is Dead podcast offering education through podcast ebook and webinar trainings.

[00:02:45] All right. Welcome back to the podcast everyone. I am so excited for today's guest. Will you share with us your pronouns and where you're located? 

[00:02:55] Tejal: Yeah, absolutely. My pronouns are she and they, I'm located on Tongva and Chumash land Colonially, known as Los Angeles, California in a little hamlet called Santa Monica.

[00:03:06] Josie: Nice, so I would love to know the story that led you to become a yoga teacher and a social justice educator. Are they related to each other for you, or did one lead to the other? 

[00:03:19] Tejal: Yeah, very much related and intertwined and I think what led me to deciding to teach full-time, quote unquote whatever full-time is when you're a yoga teacher with, you know, like 18 different jobs.

[00:03:32] Was the idea that I could choose my career that also included and incorporated everything I was passionate about outside of the day job. I had very much a corporate career for nine years in companies that sold consumer goods to people. So I worked for L'Oreal for four years and then took a year break because that didn't feel like me.

[00:04:02] But I ran outta money as you do, and I decided to take another job doing what I knew because I hadn't quite clarified where I wanted to go yet. And then I worked for a candy company, which sounds fun, but it's just you're selling a lot of candy to kids. But my job was in finance in both of those companies and like planning and analysis.

[00:04:31] And so after about two to three years in that second job at the candy company, I took a 200 hour teacher training in Astoria, Queens in New York. And then I spent a year working full-time trying to practice as much as I wanted. I had an opportunity to run a small yoga program and get my feet wet with the administration and organization and all the operations that requires.

[00:04:58] And I made a decision that I needed to leave my second finance job in my corporate life. So I gave eight weeks notice, which you know, is unheard of. But I was leaving and I didn't wanna leave anyone in a lurch. And when I left, I didn't have much of a plan beyond traveling for six months and spending the last 10 weeks in India.

[00:05:27] That was in 2014, and when I got back from that, I started to teach yoga. So I think to really answer your question, once I started teaching yoga, once I realized I wanted to make that switch out of, you know, what's like a lucrative, full-time corporate day job to whatever I wanted it to be. And recognizing I had the privilege to do so because I was really managing a tight budget for myself so that I could start something with no guarantees.

[00:05:58] I realized, The decision was about doing something I like and I'm capable of advancing in. But I have this opportunity to do something I love that I'm really passionate about that was really flexible and could be whatever I needed it to be. Which is so different for your career. 

[00:06:22] And then that, that just became 2015 onward and. It didn't start immediately as social justice education, but in the way that I need to move through the world, I would often educate people on the drivers for my actions. Why I would start a project, why I needed to talk about X, Y, and Z with a team, or, bring this conversation to the forefront because it's been missing and that was inherent in the work that I do.

[00:06:56] Josie: Totally. I love that, it sounds just like you really were so smart and practical about making those transitions. Like I think the way I would've done it would've been a lot less organized and like, well thought out. Are you like an earth sign or do you know?

[00:07:17] Tejal: Oh, that's a great question. Yeah I'm surprised you picked up Earth because it does sound grounded upon the retelling, it really does. I'm fire. Yeah, there's, I'm lefthanded person, I'm a bit I'm a numbers person, so I'm a Sagittarius. 

[00:07:36] Josie: Okay, yes. I actually do remember reading that on your website cause my rising is Sagittarius, and I was like, oh yeah, we've got that Sag connection. Oh, I love it. 

[00:07:46] Tejal: Yeah. So the full, the full portfolio is Sagittarius, Aquarius, Taurus. I think it comes down to groundedness, right? Taurus and the moon. 

[00:07:56] Josie: Yes. Yeah, totally. Okay, that makes sense. 

[00:08:00] Tejal: And then if you know about the natal chart at all, I got my chart done and I'm like 80% loaded in the 10th and 11th houses.

[00:08:09] Which are like public service and you know, family and community. I'm like, oh, ok. Makes a ton of sense. 

[00:08:15] Josie: That checks out. I love it. I find all that so fascinating. I love that story of how those two kind of came together, it makes total sense. Will you share about kind of what you're doing now in terms of your online yoga studio and how it's so different from other online yoga spaces and why it's so needed right now?

[00:08:35] Tejal: I would love to, because again, I'm doing what I love and what I'm really passionate about, so I just love talking to people who wanna learn about it. But Tejal Yoga existed out of a need for one, a way for me to container the offerings I was putting out, and they started as in-person. 

[00:08:54] I started a park program in lower Manhattan in the battery. I did that for six summers and when you start your own program, you're not under anyone else's confines or strict adherences to lineage or practice styles. So that was really nice for me to kind of start to explore what does it look like to have a very diverse mobility group, very diverse language ability group.

[00:09:21] People who are only accessing yoga because it's free, or because it's outside. Just kind of work with a lot of differences from a studio environment. That was really lovely. And I continued to develop workshops even at the studios I worked at which were always really cause centered in value aligned.

[00:09:42] So I started to offer BIPOC community mindfulness workshops and Yoga is Dead started in 2019 as a podcast, and then in 2018, actually a year before I started the abcdyogi Global Community. So I think before March 2020, like I'm making the milestone of the pandemic occurring. Tejal Yoga existed in mostly in an in-person way, but abcdyogi and Yoga is Dead were both online solely so comfortable in that space. 

[00:10:18] As of March, 2020, I also moved Tejal Yoga offerings online so that I could continue teaching and continue to explore what felt really aligned for community and society's needs at the time, as well as my capacity and bandwidth. But that quickly transitioned into a community platform as well.

[00:10:37] And now Tejal Yoga is an online studio community with a robust schedule of daily meditation, movement, and yoga education with anywhere from nine to 15 instructors. And instructors live all over the world, but the couple differentiating points are that all of the instructors are South Asian.

[00:11:01] So you're accessing people who have cultural experience of yoga as well as their own study of yoga. We're online in a way that you can access the live practices if it works for your time zone. It's a really global community and every single practice you attend live will have a community sharing component which you can opt into or just be present with, and it really builds community.

[00:11:29] It's like phenomenal, and we're two years plus into it. People have now met live in person, decided to take retreats together, decided to show up and meet one another, because the relationships are so strong. So that's available for you as well as an on-demand library, which is typical of most online yoga spaces. So, that's more about Tejal Yoga. 

[00:11:55] Josie: Wow, that's so incredible. I love that. And I think that's so true that once the pandemic hit, like so many businesses adjusted for global, online, offerings and community. Yeah. That's so cool. 

[00:12:12] Tejal: Like this podcast, right? 

[00:12:13] Josie: Yeah, totally. I know I was gonna say this podcast and I developed some online offerings as well, and I love your podcast, Yoga is Dead. It's such a good one. So for folks listening, if you haven't checked that one out, definitely go listen to that one. 

[00:12:29] Tejal: Thank you. 

[00:12:31] Josie: I would love to talk about how people can practice yoga consciously and respectfully. This is something that just comes up within myself. A lot of times I wonder about, and I've been really wanting to have this conversation cause I'm just so curious to hear your side of it, especially when I'm like supporting folks who are on their fertility journey. 

[00:12:53] You know, a lot of times I'll recommend some sort of body movement practice, and a lot of people wanna do yoga. Yoga's a popular choice. So I always have a little bit of tension in inside of me, like, what does that mean to practice yoga as a non-Indian or non-South Asian person, how do we practice yoga without culturally appropriating or doing harm? Or is that even possible? 

[00:13:16] Tejal: What it means to practice yoga for an individual is gonna be unique to that individual. Across the board. That's the sameness in it. We come to it for our own purpose and reason.

[00:13:30] I think the journey of practicing yoga is really important and can connect us towards this idea of decolonizing ourselves and our preferred practices, which means becoming more mindful of how we access any kind of practice and understanding whether the origins are Indigenous in nature, and how the evolution has shown up in our lives.

[00:13:55] Like how did this practice then land in our laps? Or if you were already at that place of mindfulness that you sought it out with that mindset. But that's a journey that I envision and aim for every yoga student in the world to be on. That's the main vision of Tejal Yoga for every yoga student in the world.

[00:14:18] To start to feel educated and empowered to advocate for yoga through a social justice lens. And social justice comes in many different forms, right? You can take up many different causes that would advocate for equity in your communities. 

[00:14:37] With yoga in particular, where I'm seated as a South Asian first generation person, I wanna bring up that it is important to recognize that yoga is a practice that comes from a place and it comes from a people, and it's also up to the student to start to identify the kind of yoga that they practice.

[00:15:00] So you might be practicing yoga called kinetic yoga. Where is the place that that has come from? What are its links to other cultures? Generally speaking, people are practicing yoga that has roots in South Asia, and that's what I can talk to. That's what I would suggest. 

[00:15:22] If you have the thought around yoga and how can I practice yoga without inflicting further harm on the place and the people where it comes from, great. I'm so happy that you're here having this thought because you're starting to gain awareness about yoga, being a practice outside of yourself. 

[00:15:41] Yoga being a practice that has movement elements but is way more than movement or fitness. And when you start to have that awareness, you get curious. And with that curiosity, you can start asking these questions that are really interesting and help lead you down like a broader, deeper journey of yoga.

[00:16:01] I think some things people can start to do right away, is to acknowledge that their practice has roots in another culture that has a variety of lineages. That this practice, although it can seem like the most positive thing you can do for yourself, that is going on in certain communities. A gift that you wanna offer to others, is a practice that also has roots in colonization, that has roots in casteism.

[00:16:30] And so it has been applied and oppressed people in various ways, and it has helped people. Large swaths of population. So there's a lot towards the acknowledgement piece after you've become really aware that there's so much more than a movement practice here or a breath work practice here. 

[00:16:54] Josie: Yeah, that's really helpful. I wonder if we can kind of brainstorm ways that folks can kind of, I hear you saying, acknowledge the practice and that's kind of like the first step. And what are some other things that we can do that are more like tangible or concrete? 

[00:17:11] Tejal: Yeah. I have this quick framework around building awareness, acknowledging, acting when you feel ready and then assessing, okay, did, how did that land?

[00:17:23] So I think those four phases are not linear in any way, shape or form. The way they show up in your body and in your mind and in your calculations around what you're doing with yourself and your time. So if we could brainstorm more things for people to start to notice is take a look at how you're approaching yoga.

[00:17:45] Is it a very discreet practice that you step into and then step away from? Which means you're going someplace that's dedicated towards a quote unquote "yoga practice" that's a finite time limit. And then when you leave that space, you might feel better, but nothing outside of- nothing else that you experienced maybe mentally or spiritually or emotionally is coming with you.

[00:18:12] So if that's the case, I would say start to ask yourself the question of what more is there to yoga than just the time period. I'm devoting to it. And that might lead you to start to wonder where the philosophy comes from and how you can access more of the philosophy, which might lead you to any kind of media that is accessible to you.

[00:18:38] Like a podcast about philosophy, or a friend that teaches philosophy, or an online class that offers philosophy. That's one thing I would just look at, is your practice discreet? Or does it flow into the rest of your life? Because the philosophy of yoga is meant to be a lifestyle. So how could it really positively impact your whole lifestyle and start to help you with any mindset shifts you need?

[00:19:06] Another thing too, is that if you do have a practice space or a place where you maybe have set up an altar or where you go to for a quiet sit, or meditation, or you go to read philosophy take a look at the setup of that space. What are the decorations, what are the items on your altar? 

[00:19:26] Do they recognize the roots of the practice? Do they have cultural elements to the practice? And I know this can get tricky because then the question becomes, well, if I have a bunch of Indian stuff, let's say on my altar, doesn't it look like I'm culturally appropriating? And I think that becomes really inside job of discernment.

[00:19:49] Josie: Yeah, that is the exact thing. I was thinking when you were saying that, I was like, I guess to me that feels like a fine line of like having Indian items on my altar, that would feel a little strange to me. But you're saying, yeah, that would be an acknowledgement of the roots of your practice.

[00:20:07] Tejal: And it goes beyond like decorations or idols, right? Because if you have an idol and it's performative in that. It's not really something you believe in, in terms of their connection to spirituality and how yoga philosophy is all about karma in the life cycle of birth, death, and rebirth.

[00:20:32] Then that might show up as performative. That might show up as appropriation. So there are other ways to take a look at how you practice and study yoga, which is take a look at your bookshelf. And notice who are the authors on your bookshelf, and are they intersectional? Do they represent a fair amount of authors that come from the source culture, that are of the diaspora?

[00:20:54] Because there are so many wonderful reference guides and resources now. In fact, I published an ebook last year, which I thought would be interesting to share about due to the name of your podcast, which is The Original Godmothers of Yoga. And it's kind of an anthology of just a handful, maybe 12 to 19 figures in yoga that practiced different lineages and identified as women and fem and even non-binary folks. 

[00:21:27] To combat the narrative that there are white women in the west that are the godmothers of yoga. Because that's just not true. And so, People are gonna ask, well, how do I get that information? And so we decided that would be a major project of Yoga is Dead last year, I believe, or 2021.

[00:21:46] Josie: Oh, amazing. Yeah. And where, is that still available for people? 

[00:21:50] Tejal: Yeah, it is at our website. Yogaisdeadpodcast.com. 

[00:21:54] Josie: Okay. Perfect, awesome. I love that. That's such a great resource for people. 

[00:21:59] Tejal: I even have another quick tip which can be done immediately. Which is, if you are practicing to music, whether it has lyrics or it's instrumental, again, take a look at who's on the playlist and who are the musicians on that playlist.

[00:22:14] And if you're at a loss for finding other more diverse, ethnically diverse musicians or those from South Asia you can actually find free Spotify, not free, but Spotify playlists that are of India, like Indian flute and things like that. But I know my podcast partner has a free download on their website.

[00:22:36] I'll be releasing one this year. And there are a lot of great artists that you could start to pepper into the music that you listen to when you meditate or practice Asana. 

[00:22:46] Josie: Nice, I love that. Yeah and that's such a, a simple, easy thing everyone can do. Most people have, a lot of folks have Spotify these days.

[00:22:55] Cool. So I'm getting sort of like to keep asking questions, to keep like, getting to the root of like, where did this come from? What is the philosophy? How can I learn more about this? And then how can I diversify the sources that I'm, that I'm getting this information from. 

[00:23:16] Tejal: Yeah, that's exactly right.

[00:23:18] Josie: Okay. Okay, cool. So, that's as a student, as a yoga student. What is the difference between practicing yoga and teaching yoga as a non-Indian or non-South Asian person? Is there a difference? 

[00:23:33] Tejal: Yeah. Josie, this is such a good question. It's really a deep question, and it's a matter of one word. Practicing versus teaching.

[00:23:42] I mean, there is a difference because when you hold the seat of students, you're open to learning, you're open to taking in more information, you're constantly seeking and hopefully questioning and building your own like critical thought analysis around the information you're taking in. That's actually very similar to being a teacher.

[00:24:03] Being a teacher is all of those things. And I think it's really important to, to identify that a teacher of yoga is also someone who has amassed a lot of knowledge, but is willing to question that knowledge too. Totally. Something that came up in the podcast because it came up in our lives, is the either or kind of mindset that is embedded in white supremacy culture around having answers to things.

[00:24:33] Either this way, or everything else is wrong. There's a right and there's a wrong, it's a very binary way of thinking. And when it comes to yoga, that's just not the cultural background of yoga. It's not the way Eastern philosophy and eastern cultures work, there's much more expansiveness to the ideas that you can bring to the table.

[00:24:56] And it's not seen as disrespect, which I think is a big difference. It's not seen as a challenge to the power structure the way it is seen as here. So that episode, the first episode of the podcast called White Women Killed Yoga, we share an experience in which I'm talking about chair pose.

[00:25:17] I'm talking about Utkatasana, and I say Utkatasana, and the person who's leading the training says to me, oh, you're saying it wrong. It's Utkatasanah. And I'm like, oh, it's actually both. It just depends on, you know, where you're from and your usage in a sentence and they said, no, that's not true. It's wrong the way you're saying it.

[00:25:41] Josie: Oh my gosh. Wow. 

[00:25:44] Tejal: Yeah, and that experience obviously stuck with me and I still call on it today because it's a great illustration of that binary thinking. And in that environment I can imagine it felt like a student usurping the teacher's power. In a yoga setting, in a small group training why do we give a fuck about that?

[00:26:06] Why are we not just having the conversation and learning more about each other to understand where it came from? That mindset, that thought. Yeah, so that's fascinating. And I think to be a teacher of yoga is to also carry the student mindset. But also to understand that within yoga philosophy, there are references towards gurus. And having a guru that you trust. 

[00:26:39] And how certain elements of our mindset is around getting right knowledge and in order to get right knowledge, there are several ways to get it. But you can get it from testimony from trusted companions or advisors. And so it's very interesting to dive into this because as a student, if you're really following the philosophy to your interpretation, whatever, it might be that you completely blindly trust your teacher.

[00:27:10] Because they have the role of teacher and they have the experience as a teacher that you feel is fit for them to be considered a teacher. But what I would say to that is, it's very important in any setting, student teacher setting to retain your autonomy over what's right for you.

[00:27:29] Over what information feels safe for you to take in, but also when the environment feels safe for you to question and to just retain your autonomy and agency in those environments so that the yoga philosophy doesn't get blurred with any kind of black and white thinking. 

[00:27:50] Josie: Yeah, that's such a good point. This, I feel like this comes up over and over again in my podcast, like with several different guests. It's like, no, that's white supremacy talking, trying to make it into this like, what is the answer? Where is that binary? Like constantly trying to put everything into like two categories.

[00:28:15] Tejal: Yeah, I think because it can stretch people's brain. To like learn a lot of things and then walk away wondering what do I do? I still have so many considerations, right? And so many questions. And every time I give a workshop, I just start it by telling people at the end of this, this is my promise.

[00:28:35] You will have more questions than when you came in. And that's a good thing. And the second disclaimer I usually make is that I have a lot of information. We're probably gonna get through some, not all. Just setting the tone right now.

[00:28:52] Josie: I love that. Yeah, I love that, and you're right cuz people want easy answers and they don't wanna have to think or do the work. And it's like, that's the opposite of what we're trying to foster is, you know, we want that like mindfulness and that curiosity and you know, never reaching the end point of like, oh, I got it. Like I figured it out. 

[00:29:16] Tejal: Yeah. And if you know yoga, you know, it's about the journey, not the destination. So all the tiny shifts and major shifts that you can go through in your life and in your mind are really the point of the practice. 

[00:29:30] Josie: Totally, totally. Yes. I love that. So, let's see. I'm looking at some of the questions I wanted to ask you, and this one I think we've already kind of talked about, but I'm wondering if there's any more to say.

[00:29:45] Yeah in terms of actions to take. Actually, one other one I was thinking of, and I wanted to run it by you is, in order to uplift the practice of yoga and to like consciously dismantle the toxic white supremacist version of yoga in quotes that's so pervasive right now. I wonder would it be good for, for us to actively reach out to support other South Asian or Indian owned businesses or, or yoga teachers specifically, or yoga studios or practices? People doing the work you're doing, you and the people who are teaching. 

[00:30:30] Tejal: 100% it's such a solid question because what it brings up to me is that, like for me specifically, I run an online yoga studio. And so one of the goals is to increase awareness of the studio.

[00:30:44] Another goal is to invite people in that's free and accessible. Provided you have streaming to be able to make it. And so because I have a business, I work within our system, and our system is capitalism, right? So in order to uplift the practice of yoga, And kind of dismantle mainstream wellness narratives that are really toxic and elitist is to share more about spaces that combat that narrative.

[00:31:14] And it is to send people that way. But how we do it is also taken under consideration. So I think there's a knee-jerk reaction to help. But it's also rooted in how we've seen people help. Which is a type of saviorism. And also can be very much rooted in a capitalist narrative and in a capitalist structure.

[00:31:43] So if you are helping and if you're helping in a monetary way depending on your level and situation, that could benefit you as well. So using the system in order to help I say that just to acknowledge that this is the structure that we live in and these are the considerations people are making and how to support with their time, with their energy, and with their monetary investment.

[00:32:10] So I think uplifting the practice of yoga in spaces that are working to dismantle these kind of toxic narratives can come through your own support. Can come through your own membership and your own opting in of these practices, that is a great way to show solidarity because you're present.

[00:32:33] And you're physically in it, so you're dismantling your own internal narrative around what yoga should be or needs to look like. And if that's accessible, not accessible to you, there are other things you can do. Which is to build relationship at the level of power in which you do hold.

[00:32:52] And first you need to acknowledge like, where do I exist in all of these structures? And that requires really knowing your positionality in terms of your intersectional identity. So once you know that, it can be a little bit easier or more clear to see, okay, where do I sit in the power structure of things? 

[00:33:14] So I have power over this space. Can I actually offer power so that we uplift this space? And we can work towards that. And that can be done through like the different type of guests you have on a podcast, if that's a project of yours, or if you start to hold events and you build a committee, you can start to invite people in in an equitable way so that they can uplift.

[00:33:41] You know what work they're doing, and you can also be sharing power in that. Those are just a few ways that are coming to the top of my mind. Like is there anything else that you've done that works? 

[00:33:54] Josie: Yeah. I love that. I love the suggestion of all of this kind of being based on learning your own positionality and what your relationship is to power and privilege and where you have power is where you have that responsibility, right? To use that power to uplift marginalized or oppressed groups. 

[00:34:19] And I also wanna say like, if people haven't done that work yet, like it's hard. It's really, it can be painful, it can bring up a lot of like feelings of shame, and it's important to do that type of work in a community, you know, to help support you and it's not really, it's hard to do it on your own, that type of work. 

[00:34:43] Tejal: So yeah, I would say it can be challenging to do that on your work, but it can also be a safer space for some people if they're starting to enter into that work. And one book that comes to mind that just came out November 1st, it's called White Women: Everything You Already Know About Your Own Racism and What To Do About It. 

[00:35:04] And it's by my friend Saira Rao and her colleague Regina Jackson. Saira is South Asian Indian, and Regina's an older black woman, and they've been teaching anti-racism and helping white liberal women confront their own internalized racism for years now.

[00:35:23] They have a documentary about it and the book came out November 1st, so it's a quick read. I was cracking up in the first five pages. As a person of color, I was like, oh, wow. They really just plainly state these unvocalized trends that go on in mainstream culture that don't really do any good for anyone, white women included. 

[00:35:49] So there are ways to enter into this work that you could do it in the safety of your own home, you could do it in community, you can do it just by watching shows, like there are so many shows that are on all the streaming platforms. It's gonna be several lifetimes to get through all the good ones, but they're out there, just give it some time and give it some energy. 

[00:36:13] Josie: Yeah, true. Yeah. I love that. And what was the title of the book? 

[00:36:17] Tejal: Yeah, it's called White Women: Everything You Already Know About Your Own Racism, and How To Do Better, I believe. Okay, 

[00:36:24] Josie: I love that. What a great title. And is the documentary the same name? Oh, there it is. Nice. 

[00:36:31] Tejal: The documentary is called Race2Dinner and the two is a number. I think it's only available through their website, Race2Dinner. But it's a very interesting documentary about how their Race2Dinner initiative brings together white women liberals at a dinner table, which is traditionally a space where you don't talk politics and you just play nice.

[00:36:57] You don't deserve the dinner table. And people get into really serious conversations about racism and colorism and anti-blackness. 

[00:37:11] Josie: Oh, so cool. Okay. I'll definitely have to check that out. And also too, that it's not just white people who have these like different positionalities of privilege and everyone's got, you know, this to look into. All of us do. 

[00:37:29] Tejal: So, yeah. And it's really an acknowledgement and a declaration that we all carry this because this is the society we grew up in. This is the culture that we're swimming in. So we all carry anti-blackness, even within the black community. And to recognize how that's been internalized and to start making those changes immediately once it's recognized.

[00:37:51] Back to yoga and the cultural appropriation conversation. It's really about like a racial hierarchy and trying to say that we can take yoga from the culture. It came from modify, change it, remove it from its source culture, and people should be grateful that we've done that for them. 

[00:38:09] People should be grateful that we've popularized yoga to the point where it's available in schools and studios and on every street corner and everybody you meet in New York City is a yoga teacher, I like to say. But that, that mindset that someone should be grateful for any of the changes that you're making to a practice or to a culture cultural tradition is a form of oppression. 

[00:38:36] It's a form of power holding and power hoarding. Interesting. So I, I think it is really an interesting conversation and in terms of learning more about that Yoga Is Dead, has a webinar that's available that you could also watch on your own to learn about these roots of cultural appropriation, which is really a form of colonialism and racism.

[00:39:00] And I offer live workshops every few months to talk about different nuance to aspects of yoga practices and how we can learn about different applications, why they're harmful. Like something I offer is called, so you want to chant om and a must say using spiritual terms with respect. And we actually go into the legislation that has impacted the way we teach yoga in this country and in India. 

[00:39:28] I mean, it's a really expansive conversation because you start to identify the timeline of events and how much yoga has had to morph into other people's designations of what yoga should be, not the actual original intentions.

[00:39:45] Josie: Right. Oh wow. That sounds so good. I will definitely be taking your workshops. I love, and I love the titles of everything. They're such good titles. 

[00:39:57] Tejal: Yeah, we need to do something to stop the scroll, right? 

[00:39:59] Josie: Yeah. Oh, totally. So I would love to talk about and just kind of, this is more of an exploratory, I don't know, conversation or questions that I have cuz I don't know if there's anything here. But I would love to know if there's a relationship between yoga and queerness. Is there a connection between queerness and yoga and how do they relate to each other? Is queerness recognized in yoga? 

[00:40:25] Tejal: I think there's a couple ways to think about this and I was really mulling over this. Because one, my answer is not gonna be everyone's answer. So I just wanna share that. And I'm coming from it from a place of social justice activism, so that puts me in the mindset of the present way we practice.

[00:40:49] This is such an interesting conversation because there is a tendency to identify yoga as an alignment based practice. Hmm. And when we start to think about alignment, we think about how we were taught about bodies, and we think about the history of learning about bodies. And it's typically cisgender, right? 

[00:41:11] It's typically a male pelvis, a female pelvis. These are the dominant qualities, and this is done so that you have a framework from which to move forward. But frameworks aren't necessarily bad. It's just problematic when that's the only framework that exists, right? And no other education, later education or even that early education addresses.

[00:41:36] That there really isn't a binary. The binary is bullshit. So talk about our differences from the start or make sure that they're in the level two training about bodies or the fifth grade, you know, education about bodies. And I think that translates into how we. Practice certain styles of yoga.

[00:41:57] And then how we also have to undo our own knowledge and education around yoga, especially as it's taught in the West around alignment based principles. I think there has been a shift, especially in the communities that I am in, in yoga around talking about people who menstruate, births, you know, women who have periods.

[00:42:22] Talking about parents, talking about birthing people. So all of that I think, relates to this conversation. How does that sit for you, Josie? 

[00:42:33] Josie: Yeah, so it seems like it's almost like, again, like there's no end point. So we're sort of in the middle of, or in the midst of yoga, evolving into what's happening right now, which is, you know, having more awareness around inclusivity and intersectional spaces.

[00:42:52] Tejal: Yeah, I like that idea that yoga's evolving because that's something that people often ask me, well, if you're constantly talking about yoga coming from a place and coming from a people, does that mean it should never change? And the answer is no. You just have to know the origin, the roots. It's why we celebrate our birthdays every year.

[00:43:11] We love the fact that we have a place and a point from which we started, right? And it's a moment to pause and celebrate, but at the same time, we're evolving all the time. And so has the practice, which hopefully keeps it present for all of us. But I think what people have decided to do is take it and then own it in a certain way so that they could talk about it in a certain way, and then remove it from all of that origin story to say that this is the modern way to do things.

[00:43:45] This is the way that meets us where we're at now. But I will say that yoga gurus or some of the teachers that you can study about in the past and even through the ebook that I offer, don't stick to the binary. And that's the history, that's present. 

[00:44:08] There are stories of gender swapping in terms of the powers and qualities you can develop through yoga in a consistent study yoga practice, whether you believe that or not. There are stories of changing the way a person dresses so it's not normative towards a certain gender. The experience of being in the seat of your partner.

[00:44:37] Instead of yourself when there were very strict gender roles. So there are stories that exist. And they're out there, they're just not as talked about, which is sad. It isn't, it feels like it's excluding a large swath of people from a practice that was never meant to be exclusionary.

[00:44:57] Josie: Right. I feel like that's true in a lot of different cultures where if you go back far enough, there were either multiple genders or not one gender, no binary. And it's like, you know, over time it's become this thing where it's, now we have this binary, but if you go back far enough, I mean, that's certainly true in Indigenous Mexican culture too.

[00:45:19] Tejal: Absolutely. Oh my gosh, absolutely. And you know, I'm really energized to share the idea of yoga as liberation for an individual and for the collective, right? That is like what I believe the goal of yoga, if you're on a path, is to live more peaceful life, which is to allow people to simply be and to let all the social constructs of who they need to be and how they need to show up just fall away.

[00:45:47] That is freedom to me. And I think when we achieve this state of freedom, we're just letting go of the attachments to what we should look like, what we do look like. We're letting go of attachments to how people need to perceive us, how we want people to perceive us. And that just feels like freedom.

[00:46:08] And you know, it's the type of freedom that allows you to be more expansive in the way you think about your body. The way you think about how you move through the world and your own gender and sexuality. Which I think is a really strong connection to the practice and goal of yoga. 

[00:46:26] Josie: Right, right. Yeah. I love that. I love that feeling that way and thinking that way about yoga, that the purpose is freedom, you know? So like for every individual. 

[00:46:39] Ugh, well, I have absolutely adored having you here, and this conversation has been awesome. Thank you so much. How can people find you and support you and buy all your things and send love your way?

[00:46:53] Tejal: Thank you. I really had a nice time talking to you, Josie, so thank you for building this space out. I mean, in terms of connecting, I'm kind of, I'm all over the online space, and YouTube and Instagram mostly. And I love connecting with people on the email list. In fact, if you sign up for the email list, you get a code for a free class. 

[00:47:18] So we definitely wanna encourage people to do that. You can do that on my website at tejalyoga.com, which is also my Instagram and you get the links from there too. 

[00:47:30] Josie: Okay. Okay, great. And I'll include those links in the show notes so people can have direct access.

[00:47:36] Tejal: Yeah, that's great. And they can get ahold of abcdyogi work and Yoga is Dead podcast items that I mentioned from that website too. That's your hub. 

[00:47:46] Josie: Good. I love it. And I will definitely be signing up for your mailing list, taking all your classes. All righ, we'll see you soon. 

[00:47:55] Tejal: Okay. Thanks so much, Josie.

[00:48:00] Josie: Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility Podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz. 

[00:48:17] If you like the show and want to hear more, tap subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and please leave us a review. It really truly helps. The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and produced by Rozarie Productions, with original music by Jen Korte.

All content offered through The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is created for informational purposes only, it is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.