Episode 50 - Josie and Melissa: Building a Queer Blended Family

Today's special Valentine's Day themed episode features Josie and their spouse Melissa (she/they) as they reflect on the experience of building their queer blended family and give advice for folks who may be in a similar situation.  Josie offers the experience of someone who was divorced with two young children and newly out as queer when they met Melissa, who would later become a step parent to Josie's kids. 

[ID: A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 50: Melissa Komadina @komadina and Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier @intersectionalfertility.]

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Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.

[00:00:00] Josie: I am Josie Rodriguez-Boucher, and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our Whole Selves.

[00:00:33] Welcome back to the podcast everyone, I am super excited about today's conversation for Valentine's Day. This is a special Valentine's Day episode where I'm bringing on my spouse to the podcast. 

[00:00:48] But before we do that, I wanted to remind you all that registration is now open for my online program Fertile, which is a five week online program for queer, trans and non-binary folks with wombs who are trying to conceive.

[00:01:05] It's also for healthcare providers or community workers who want to become certified in the fertility method that I teach in my program. And there is a sliding scale to join and there are scholarships available for Black, Indigenous, and People of the Global Majority. 

[00:01:24] So head over to intersectionalfertility.com/fertile to read all the program details and feel free to message me, or email me, josie@intersectionalfertility.com with any questions you may have about joining. We already have a few folks who have joined and it's just already shaping up to be such a sweet group. So I would love to have you join us. 

[00:01:50] Welcome babe, thanks for coming on my podcast. 

[00:01:55] Mel: Glad to be back.

[00:01:57] Josie: Fan favorite, this is your third episode on the podcast. I think so, right. 

[00:02:04] Mel: Really? Oh, okay. Oh yeah. I think I interviewed you one time, didn't I? 

[00:02:09] Josie: Yeah, you interviewed me. We did one episode about gender. If anyone wants to hear that one, I think it's such a great one, it's so funny. And very giggly, I think we giggled a lot. I think it was like episode two. It was very back in the, in the way, way back archives. And then you came back on to interview me about Fertile I think at some point. Anyway, so this is your third. You're a veteran.

[00:02:43] Mel: Yeah, you're right. Oh man. Never thought I would be able to put that on on my skills, resume.

[00:02:51] Josie: Podcast goer. 

[00:02:56] Mel: Podcast guest. 

[00:02:56] Josie: Podcast guest. Would you like to introduce yourself? 

[00:03:02] Mel: Sure, yeah. I am Melissa. I am Josie's spouse. Let's see. I'm a co-parent of two dogs and two kids. For work, I'm a product designer, so I make websites, mobile apps those kinds of digital projects.

[00:03:24] And my main thing is climbing. So I like to climb outside and boulder and check out different rocks and I'm getting into gardening. So I've been learning lots about native plants that grow where we live in Colorado. So yeah, just anything that keeps me outside in the sun feels really good. 

[00:03:46] Josie: Yeah. You cut out a little bit. Your main thing is climbing? 

[00:03:51] Mel: Mm, yeah, climbing. Yeah, mostly bouldering. Yeah, so I love to climb rocks and then I'm getting into native gardening with plants that are native to where we live in Colorado. So yeah, so I'm trying my hand at winter sewing some seeds, so we'll see how that turns out.

[00:04:14] And yeah, just learning a lot from a different plant centers and YouTube and yeah, becoming kind of an older person. When I go to these classes, it's like me and like eight other older people, which I love. I like to be outside, I like to be in the sun. 

[00:04:37] Josie: Yes. Sun, goat. You're also a Capricorn.

[00:04:42] Mel: I am a Capricorn. 

[00:04:43] Josie: So product designer, climber, co-parent, new gardener. Love it. I'm definitely benefiting from the gardening piece. Our house surroundings are looking amazing. 

[00:05:00] Mel: I know. It feels like they're never going to come back cuz it's been winter. And everything looks dead. But I'm holding out that in a couple months it'll be really beautiful again.

[00:05:11] Josie: Yes. I can't wait. Cool. So what I wanted to talk about today was the creation of our queer blended family. Because you and I both feel like our type of family is very underrepresented in media and in just everywhere. It's just, it's hard to find resources, you know, for step parenting, let alone queer step parenting.

[00:05:39] You've voiced that concern before. And same with me. You know, it's hard to find resources and support and help around blended families, let alone queer, blended families. So I kind of just wanted to talk about, you know, how our family came to be and sort of what we've learned and any kind of nuggets of wisdom we have uncovered along the way.

[00:06:05] So we've been kind of forming this family for the past almost seven years, I think. Is that right? 

[00:06:15] Mel: Yeah. Or, six, yeah. 

[00:06:17] Josie: Six years. So yeah, we've been through a lot already. 

[00:06:25] So, babe, I would love to know from you, how did you think about creating a family growing up? What were your thoughts around that?

[00:06:35] Mel: Yeah, I mean, when I was young, I, I had like pretty, I don't know, like stereotypical heteronormative ideas about family and what that was gonna look like and looking back like, kind of like a scary timeline for everything. And it was kind of funny how my life played out. 

[00:06:56] I just remember being at like slumber parties and like everyone's going around in the circle. And saying like, when they wanna get married and how many kids are they gonna have? And we were all like, yeah, married by 26, and then I'm gonna have like one girl and one boy. And you know, that was like, I think as much as we had absorbed, you know, from seeing the families we grew up in.

[00:07:21] So I just kind of figured that that's what my life was going to look like. And that was how my family was gonna look like. And then as I got older and I came out, I don't know, having kids wasn't on my radar for a long time. It wasn't something I necessarily felt like I needed to seek out in my life.

[00:07:41] Like I was pretty on the fence about having kids. I figured if I was ever dating someone who really wanted kids, like yeah, I could get on board with that. But it wasn't something that I felt like was driving me or that I strongly wanted. And then of course, also dating a parent wasn't on my radar.

[00:08:00] When you and I started dating, I was kind of just like, oh, okay, like, let's see how this goes. And it just kind of unfolded from there, really. 

[00:08:09] Josie: Yeah, so Melissa and I met on Bumble and both of us happened to widen our age parameters at the same time, which is the only way we met. I happened to lower my age range because we're, there's a seven year difference between us. You're seven years younger. So I, I happened to lower my age range right before you and I met and you happened to increase your age range, right? 

[00:08:39] Mel: Yeah, I swore off 20 something and and said yes to older folks. 

[00:08:47] Josie: Yes, older folks. That would be me. 

[00:08:51] Mel: It's all relative. 

[00:08:52] Josie: I know, right? Cause you were, yeah. How old were you when we met, 32? 

[00:08:59] Mel: I was 31. 

[00:08:59] Josie: 31. So I was 38 when we met. 

[00:09:03] Mel: Which to me was like so much older. Like my friends did not get over how I was dating a 38 year old. 

[00:09:11] Josie: I know, I mean, that is a big, cause when I met all your friends, I mean, some of them were still in their twenties. 

[00:09:18] Mel: I know. Well cause they were young, a lot of them were younger than me. It was like two worlds, different worlds colliding. 

[00:09:27] Josie: Yeah, I know. It's, I still feel that way. I mean, I'm quite a bit older than some of your friends. It's wild. 

[00:09:35] Mel: You know who you are. 

[00:09:36] Josie: Yeah. You all, you listening, you know who you are. Yeah. And I remember feeling, when we first started dating, I remember feeling nervous.

[00:09:45] That you might still wanna have kids because you were so much younger than me. And I felt like, oh man, this could be a deal breaker because I'm done having kids. I have my two kids, and I don't want to have more. And so I thought, what if, what if this person really wants to have a baby? Then what are we gonna do?

[00:10:08] And you had also talked about, I don't know if you remember this conversation. We were on a road trip, I think it was our first road trip that we took. You were telling me that you were thinking about freezing your eggs. Do you remember that? 

[00:10:22] Mel: I was? Oh, that's funny. I don't remember that. 

[00:10:27] Josie: Interesting, yeah. And I was like, oh, okay. And it kind of freaked me out. Cause I was like, oh man, if they're thinking about freezing their eggs, then maybe there's still a possibility there that they wanna have kids, you know? 

[00:10:41] Mel: Right. Huh. Okay. I guess I just wanted to keep my options open maybe. But at the same time, I also remember being relieved that you didn't wanna have more kids. So I was like, okay, cool. Like the decision's kind of like made and I'm like, cool with that decision. So interesting. 

[00:11:01] Josie: Yeah. I mean I feel like that's quite lucky that we both were feeling that way cause it could have been a real deal breaker.

[00:11:11] Mel: Yeah, for sure. I mean, early thirties can be a tricky time to start dating, especially if you're born female and you think you might wanna use your own eggs or carry a baby at some point. 

[00:11:25] Josie: Right, exactly. And then kind of backtracking a little bit, like how I felt about family and having babies, I think I really internalized the surrounding culture of just like, yeah, I'm gonna have babies, obviously, like, of course. And my mom, I think sort of, I don't know what the right word is, but really kind of assumed that I was gonna have children. 

[00:11:56] And so that's just kind of how we both spoke about it was just that, yeah, when I have kids at some point. So I always just knew that I was gonna have kids. Afterwards, I had my two kids with my ex-husband, and afterwards is when I came out. And so I felt some sadness around like, oh, I had like this like kind of heterosexual experience around having my kids and here I am now supporting queer folks to have kids.

[00:12:34] And it's like I had a really different experience than they did in terms of conceiving. And a friend of mine who I met through a class that I took with king yaa this person, JB, who's wonderful, really confirmed for me that my conception was still a queer conception because I was queer. And I was like, oh yeah, like that's, I never even thought about that.

[00:12:59] Like there are definitely, queer conceptions that happen the way that my conception happened. You know, like there are queer folks that conceive by direct deposit. And if they, if they happen to have you know, that combination of genitalia between the two of them or between, to have sperm and eggs that's how they'll conceive as well.

[00:13:22] So it made me feel like, okay, it was also a queer conception, even if I didn't know it at the time. I know it was quite different than how a lot of the folks I am supporting, you know, how they're conceiving. But I don't know, that was an interesting aha moment for me. 

[00:13:40] Mel: Right, yeah. That's a cool way to think about it, because it's still you. 

[00:13:46] Josie: Yeah. It did feel like, okay. I was still me. I still had that experience, even though it didn't go how I pictured it in my mind, how I feel like it should have gone as a queer person now. But anyway, so that was interesting. 

[00:14:04] And then, I always imagined like having a nuclear family of like, me and the father of my children and that kind of thing. Like I just figured I would kind of go forward with that heteronormativity. And then coming out and getting a divorce and having these two young kids, it was like, okay, I didn't picture any of this.

[00:14:31] So now what is this gonna look like? Moving forward. And so, you know, dating was a whole interesting thing to navigate as a 38 year old, freshly out of the closet with two pretty small kids. And then dating someone who was not a parent and maybe didn't necessarily wanna be, I feel like we had a pretty big learning curve. Like to bring our lives together. What do you think? 

[00:15:03] Mel: Yeah, I'm curious when you were dating initially, how did that go for you? Were people kinda like me? Where they're like, open to see where this is going. Or was it harder out there to be like a single, like newly out parent? 

[00:15:23] Josie: Yeah, I mean, I have nothing to compare it to. So I don't know, but definitely a few people were like, yeah, that's a deal breaker. It's a whole other factor, a whole other thing to bring into the relationship. So yeah, it was tough. 

[00:15:43] And also, I would say what was interesting was dating other moms. Other people who had children was tricky because we were on, different custody schedules or whatever, you know, that was tricky to line that up.

[00:16:01] And it was interesting when you and I started dating, it was like, okay, where is this gonna go? How are you? Like, I just was feeling so nervous of like what your idea was of your future and your family building. 

[00:16:17] Mel: Right, yeah. It's almost hard to remember now what I was thinking. I guess I was just kind of taking it one day at a time and just kind of, like I said, seeing where.

[00:16:33] It went because I had never dated a parent before, so that was a whole new experience. But I also think because I mean, possibly freezing my eggs, not withstanding, I wasn't really thinking about having children of my own too. So I think I had some flexibility in terms of what I wanted out of the relationship.

[00:16:59] Like I wasn't necessarily trying to find someone who wanted to, where one of us wanted to get pregnant eventually and have a kid together. So I think that freed me up in a way to still continue our relationship as something that could be open-ended. 

[00:17:21] At the same time, there definitely was like a seriousness to a relationship that I hadn't experienced in other relationships because you were in the midst of getting divorced and you had two kids who were five and under.

[00:17:37] So that was like a way more serious situation than I had ever had experienced. And, none of my friends had experienced, I mean. Before I met you, I was using a climbing crash pad as a couch and would just be gone every weekend on mountain bike trips or ski trips and so yeah.

[00:18:06] Whereas like you were dealing, you were raising small humans. Your life just had like a what I considered like an adult, you know, you had an adult life and I had like kind of that adult with like kids with money kind of life, lifestyle.

[00:18:29] Josie: You had a kids with money lifestyle, you mean? 

[00:18:31] Mel: I'm the kid. I'm the kid, but I have like money to go do things.

[00:18:35] Josie: I see. Yeah, totally. You're like a grownup kid. Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah, I was, well, for folks who have not heard our, our meet story, your Bumble just said fancy dirt bag.

[00:18:57] And I was like, what does that mean? So funny. But they're cute, so I'm gonna swipe right. 

[00:19:06] Mel: Right, right. All all it meant was I bring charcuterie to the campsite, and nice beer. But I'm sleeping on like a, or yeah, like have a climbing crash pad as a couch in my living room. Yeah. 

[00:19:26] Josie: Yeah. So we were in just completely different worlds and something I loved so much about you and still love about you is just how you were so willing to just see where it went.

[00:19:41] I couldn't believe it. I was like, looking back, I'm like, wow, you really took so many risks by dating me in that situation that I was in. It just was like, wow, I can't believe you just kind of stuck through it and we're just like, yeah, let's see where this goes. 

[00:20:01] Mel: Yeah. I dunno. You were very compelling. So I felt like there was a lot of potential with us and I mean, more so than any other relationship I had had. So and I mean, I don't know, sometimes it's like you get, it is kind of that thing where it's like you get what you need in life. 

[00:20:26] And so, part of me felt like there was some sort of reason that we were brought together, and particularly that like, and that you had children, that there was some sort of greater plan or whatever, or purpose in us coming together. So I felt that, and so I think that was partly what, made me wanna keep seeing what happened. 

[00:20:56] Josie: Oh, that's so interesting. You've never said that to me before. Yeah, I mean, looking back on it now, I mean, we were just talking about this the other night where it just seems like it's so wild because it seems like you have become such the perfect parent to both of our kids in so many ways. In ways that I'm not like, you've really brought so much to our family and to the parenting equation that wasn't there before.

[00:21:29] So in a way it's like, yeah, you were the missing piece, like you were the missing parent for these kids. Which, there's no way we could have seen that coming, like from the very beginning. Like that was not obvious at first. 

[00:21:46] Mel: Yeah. I would say in the beginning I was like, not an ideal parent. And this might be being me, being hard on myself, but like, truthfully, and you know this, like, I am not necessarily good with little kids, which the kids, they were three and five when I met them. And like, that's not my wheelhouse. I'm much better with like older kids or we can like go do things and like have a conversation and stuff.

[00:22:13] So I have been feeling more in recent years that I am bringing things to the table which feels great. But in the beginning I felt like I contributed nothing. Like I was not helping with diapers or bedtime or bottles or tantrums or, yeah.

[00:22:36] And that was like a struggle to figure out like what my purpose was, honestly. Like in the context of our family. I guess I was just like, well, I know as they get older I'll be more comfortable and I'll probably have more to contribute. At least in the first few years I just, I felt kind of purposeless. 

[00:22:59] Josie: Yeah. And it's such a particular skillset I think in those first few years. Like you said, you're just dealing with like diapers and tantrums and, you know, it's like these things that are, are also like highly, they just want me, you know, they just want mom. 

[00:23:13] Mel: Right, yeah. I remember trying to comfort them and they would just be like, mama! And I'm like all right then. I tried.

[00:23:22] I mean, the kids liked me and they used to always ask like if I was having like a sleep, like staying for a sleepover, which is cute. And like your little euphemism for like, yeah. 

[00:23:34] Josie: They loved you. Like, is Melissy gonna stay for a sleepover? 

[00:23:38] Mel: Yeah, so like I could tell they liked me, but I was also like, man, I don't know like how much help I'm offering here.

[00:23:48] Josie: Right. Yeah. And it, and you know, those first few years, I think you focused on supporting me when we had them. Which was really helpful. Like you were emotionally supporting me and also kind of logistically you were really skilled at logistics, and thinking things through, like our schedule and what kind, what we're gonna need for this.

[00:24:14] And helping out with the meals, cooking and cleaning and just kind of being like a major support. 

[00:24:22] Mel: Back of the house kind of thing. 

[00:24:23] Josie: Yeah. Back of the house. Yeah. So that was hugely helpful. So you and I were kind of talking about this the other night. Are there any perks of dating a parent?

[00:24:37] Mel: Yeah. I mean, there are definitely perks. Like they have snacks at any given time. They're great planners. I remember when we were planning our first going away trip, you were texting me like in great detail, like all the things that you were bringing, or like, do I have this, could I bring it?

[00:25:01] And like, what if we plan on having pancakes? I'll make sure we have these items. And it was so refreshing after being the one in my friend group who typically did that like kind of planning and coordinating to like have someone else who's doing all that logistical work and, and thinking ahead.

[00:25:20] So that was awesome. I mean parents are pretty like steady, stable people compared to single young people too. So I also appreciated like that you were serious, you like, weren't playing any games. You texted me right back. You were like, I'm available these nights. It made me feel like very important and made me feel, I mean, I think that's one of the reasons our relationship progressed so quickly. 

[00:25:55] Was just because there was that stability, and that like maturity and seriousness. And I mean, I thought for sure you were gonna wanna like date around as like a newly out person. But yeah, you were pretty, you said you were pretty, like you weren't necessarily looking to play the field and with like two kids and stuff.

[00:26:20] So yes, I appreciated that that candor, but also that maturity. 

[00:26:27] Josie: Yeah. That's cool. Well, and also, I don't know if we said this in this recording or not, but you are Capricorn. Which I think goes well with dating an older person. 

[00:26:39] Mel: Yeah. I mean, yeah, they say that Capricorns are old souls, which I've, I've always felt that way. I feel like I've was kind of at a place as a kid and as I've gotten older, I've just like come more and more into my own and just feel like what I bring to the table is valued. Whereas when you're young, sometimes Capricorns are like, I don't know. We're not like a youthful sign necessarily.

[00:27:07] Yeah, I mean, for sure. I definitely think like my earthiness appreciated, you know, like, like I said, like the stability, the serious approach to love the not playing games. Your communication. Yeah. I mean, you were really like speaking in my love languages. 

[00:27:30] Josie: And I'm a Pisces, which is like the old soul of the Zodiac too. So I think that went well, as well. And I loved when we were chatting the other night that you said if you were to be on Bumble now, you would still have your age parameters way up. Cause now we're, I'm 44. Or almost 44. I'll be at 44 in a few days. And you're 37.

[00:28:02] Mel: I'm not telling you, you should know this. 

[00:28:04] Josie: Is that how old you are?

[00:28:06] Mel: I'm 37. 

[00:28:09] Josie: You're 37 right? Why won't you tell me if I'm right? 

[00:28:14] Mel: I just said I'm 37. 

[00:28:16] Josie: Okay. Yeah.

[00:28:21] Okay, so you're 37, and you would still have the parameters. What did you say to 55? 

[00:28:27] Mel: Well, I think mine would go up actually. Because at the, at this point, I mean, yeah, like hypothetically, I would not want to start a family personally. And so I think I would probably bump up my parameters a little bit more.

[00:28:44] But yeah, definitely no younger than me and yeah, but I would, I would go older. Like we're, we're talking fifties. I like the older ones. 

[00:28:57] Josie: I'm so lucky. I just scored such a jackpot with you. 

[00:29:01] Mel: Yeah, you know. A little May-December action. 

[00:29:04] Josie: So the perks for me of dating a younger person was, I felt like really young in my queerness and I felt younger than you in a lot of ways. In terms of my experience being queer and being out in the community and just knowing about queer stuff and all of that. 

[00:29:30] It was like, it felt so nice to be with a younger person in that way because I feel in a lot of ways I feel like I can relate to younger generations. I think maybe in the more like openness, the open way of thinking. Or like, I feel like younger folks are less set in their ways and I don't know.

[00:29:51] I don't always feel a strong connection with people my age or older. Yeah, so I really loved like learning about like queer culture and learning like the lingo, learning stuff I was really curious about and wanted to know about. You were just like this wealth of information.

[00:30:17] Mel: Yeah. Well, it's cute how it's handed down. I mean, yeah. I mean, my first girlfriend had been out since she was pretty little. And she had an older sister who was also queer, so she was teaching me all about queer culture when I came out. So, I don't know, we just kind of passed that knowledge down. 

[00:30:36] Josie: Like passing the baton. Yeah. So I loved that. Yeah. And I loved your, like, the way that you were in the world and, and just the things you were up to. You were so active and, you know, just like, what you're up to, you were just, and you were hot and still are hot. So that was, that was a major bonus.

[00:31:03] So, yeah, many perks for a May-December relationship. What's been so cool is to watch you develop and evolve over time as a stepparent. And watching your relationship form really organically, really naturally with both of our kids, it's been like, it's really something that we couldn't have planned or like forced.

[00:31:33] It just happened really naturally over time. And it's been really incredibly beautiful and moving to watch and like we kind of started talking about earlier, like there's been these major pieces that you've brought to the table that it's like, wow, I could not have given that to them. 

[00:31:51] Or I couldn't have seen that, and you see it really clearly, and you'll step in. A good example is our oldest kiddo is really active, you know, is very athletic and has tons of physical energy. And I'm am really low energy physically, and I can like sit still for hours. Whenever I feel like, oh, something's off, or I need something, it's like, oh, I must need more downtime.

[00:32:26] I must need to like rest or to sit and do nothing, or sit and read a book, or write, or watch a movie. That's like my stress relief or that's like my go-to. I'm always thinking like, conserve energy, like in my mind. And with kids too, I mean, with both of them growing up, it's like, okay, what we need is to like, calm down, you know, settle down, come in, settle down, you know, be quiet, let's de-stress kind of thing.

[00:32:59] And you were like, no, this kid needs to run, this kid needs to like be in sports and be super active. So it was just like, what? Like, wow, I did not see that need there. And you recognized it pretty early on that you were like, no, this kid needs to, like, this is gonna be their stress relief.

[00:33:24] Mel: Yeah, I mean for me playing sports, working out, like I said before, being outside, those are all such key components. Not just of like things I like to do, but they're how I, you know, support my mental health and spend time with friends. So it's like a key part of my social life too. And I grew up playing sports too, so just that world was really familiar to me.

[00:33:56] And always, honestly, kind of like a comfort. It's like you're doing a sport, you have practice on these days, you have teammates who support you and then you go get pizza afterward, and you get to be silly and make friends. And you have this coach who's like another adult that you can learn from.

[00:34:20] And anyway, so I played all the sports and then yeah, as I mentioned, climbing's my main thing now. I could just see like a lot of, not just like similar qualities in Izzy, but also just observing him when we were doing activities, like when he's playing soccer or on the playground or like at the climbing gym.

[00:34:43] Or even like when we went climbing outside and stuff, like he just, he is very talented naturally, but also he has like grit and just feels really good about himself and yeah. It's just like beaming, and he wants to keep going. Like I kind of have to like reel him back and I'm like, okay, like we have done enough today, let's head on home.

[00:35:09] But yeah, he just has that capacity and so I think it'll be not only something he hopefully enjoys and continues exploring but something that it will be really key for his self-esteem and just, you know, blowing off steam and yeah. Regulating stress and all that. 

[00:35:33] Josie: Totally, and it's worked like a charm. I mean, when I notice that he's getting aggravated or feeling down or just needing some sort of stress release or something, you two will go climb, or you'll go to the gym, or you'll go lift weights even. You've taught him how to do some weightlifting and it's just like he comes back as a different kid.

[00:36:01] Mel: Yeah, and I mean, that's how it is for me too. It's something a lot of my friends and I have in common too, like where if we don't lift weights, if we don't climb, we get like really irritable and depressed. It's just something that I was just like, well, of course. 

[00:36:20] I came at it from the opposite perspective as you, where it's like, oh yeah, of course. Like you need to do like some physical activity, or of course you're gonna be like, you know, angsty and sad and all this stuff, so it was pretty apparent to me. 

[00:36:36] Josie: Yeah. So I'm just, I've been amazed at what a perfect puzzle piece, puzzle fitting together piece like you two have become, is just like, wow, like just watching the two of you become really honestly bonded. 

[00:36:55] Mel: Yeah. I mean we had our like truly first climbing session together the other week where I was, I would climb and then he would climb and we would just. Cause in the past, cause he was younger, I spent most of the time like spotting him, and stuff and didn't climb that much myself. 

[00:37:14] But yeah, I mean, he's at an age now where it's like, oh yeah, we're like doing this together. This is an activity we can share. And I, I feel like I've made it in a way, you know, just from like the early years or I was just like, I feel like I have no purpose here.

[00:37:33] And now it's like, oh, okay. This was kind of like the vision I had hoped, I mean, nothing's guaranteed, but, the way it worked out like this was kind of like what I hoped would happen. And now it just is like, okay. Yeah, I feel kind of validated in how I was thinking about my purpose in this family.

[00:37:53] Josie: Yeah, totally. And I feel like you've also really created your own bond with Vivi. Our youngest and you two have a lot of similarities in like your, like earthiness, you both have a lot of earth in your charts. And you both have a lot of that like seeking like pleasure and creature comforts and your senses of humor are similar and it's like, it's been so cute to watch. 

[00:38:24] Like when we were having a movie night, the other night, and Vivi just like sat on the arm of the chair where you were sitting like the big easy chair, and then kind of slipped in next to you and just like curled up under your arm like a little bear cub. It was so cute.

[00:38:43] Mel: I know. I was like trying not to move. It's like when an animal like sits on your lap and you're just kinda like sitting there, like trying not to like move too much so that way they don't get up and go away.

[00:38:54] Josie: It's like the sweetest thing I've ever seen. I was like, oh my God. And she's done it like multiple times with you. Vivi will find you and kinda snuggle up with you when we're watching tv. 

[00:39:06] Mel: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Vivi also appreciates a good charcuterie board. She's really into cooking. And we just kind of chill. I mean, so many times we're just kind of like, sitting near each other and then they just like start asking me questions or they start a game and stuff and it's always just been very kind of random. 

[00:39:37] But like silly and fun and yeah. I mean, I just appreciate how good at hanging out Vivi is. They're just really fun to be with. 

[00:39:49] Josie: Totally. I'll come back in the room and you two are like in your own little world, like giggling about something and I'm like, what is going on? It's so cute. 

[00:39:59] Mel: Yeah. We can't explain it to you. 

[00:40:00] Josie: Yeah. You had to be there. And now they're eight and ten, so they'll be, Vivi will be nine this summer and Iz will be eleven, can't believe it, this summer. So, yeah. Quite a different experience than a few years ago parenting. 

[00:40:20] Mel: Yeah. Like they're at ages where I can remember what it was like being those ages, which is like really trippy. But also like I said, I feel like I'm kind of getting into my sweet spot, and I'm stoked. 

[00:40:36] Josie: And what I love too has been noticing, I think something that I've learned from parenting, probably one of my biggest like takeaways is how much of it has been reparenting myself. So like, watching them be at certain ages just inevitably brings up, you know, where I was at that age.

[00:40:58] And then, if you're parenting unconsciously, which we all do, you start to kind of project what you were going through at that age. And it's taken a lot of like self-reflection and therapy and, and working on it myself of being like, oh, this is my issue and actually doesn't have to do with my kid necessarily.

[00:41:24] So it's been a lot of like reparenting little me and I've noticed that you've kind of been doing that too, or what are your thoughts on that? 

[00:41:32] Mel: Yeah, I will say like, there's a lot there and that's kinda why I'm struggling to answer in like a neat way. I mean, one thing that being around the kids has reminded me is that it's really hard to be a kid.

[00:41:47] Just like there is that inherent power dynamic between adults and kids, and you just have so little control over your life when you're a kid. I mean, you're just like, totally dependent on your parents or caregivers or teachers and it can really suck, it's not like you can just change jobs, or move, get different roommates or anything. 

[00:42:12] Like, you don't have that autonomy to really change your day to day. So it's definitely given me more empathy for kids and yeah. And just also realizing it's just like, you and I joke a lot that like, kids are like little aliens. But like, they kind of are. There's so much that they don't know and their emotions are so pure and all the time I'm just like, man, the kids are having the same response to something that I'm having.

[00:42:42] The only difference is I've learned, ways to cope better or ways to like filter my emotions better, so that way I'm not like, having a meltdown in a store. But the feelings are the same and I'm just like, man, it's kind of amazing how much, you know, how quickly kids adapt and develop coping mechanisms.

[00:43:07] And when I think back to my own childhood, it was just like, I, I think I had more compassion for myself because I had this view of myself as being like really difficult and mean to my brother and causing a scene. And now I'm just kind of like, oh, I probably felt jealous my brother was getting all this attention. Or I wanted the thing that I wanted, and instead I got like punished for it.

[00:43:39] So, yeah, I mean, of course it doesn't make it any easier if your kid's having like a meltdown and you're just like, oh my God. Like, this is painful. But it is interesting how like our experience is the same. We just don't necessarily have like the tools, or power to have different responses.

[00:43:57] Josie: Yeah. It's so true. I feel like I've really noticed watching you change your narrative around your childhood while you've been parenting. Like it's like you have started like looking at things and thinking about things differently. Like, oh, maybe that's not what was really happening. 

[00:44:16] Like you just said, you're like, oh, maybe I wasn't a difficult kid, I was just having big feelings. You start to look at yourself differently. 

[00:44:25] Mel: Yeah, for sure. And I mean, I will give you a lot of credit too, there because you're always encouraging me to be nicer to myself. And you're just very compassionate to the kids too. I think like a lot of people, we tend to want to parent the way we were parented. 

[00:44:47] And watching how you parent the kids, especially, when they're, I don't know. I don't have like an example, but like, you parent from a place where like you want to, to talk to them and hear their point of view instead of like just trying to flex power over them and like make them go to their room or whatever.

[00:45:09] So that's been interesting, just cause I mean it, like my family wasn't like necessarily authoritative, but like we were not, there was a certain way we could speak to our parents and if we were rude or used the wrong words and we would be in trouble. 

[00:45:28] Josie: Right, yeah. I feel like that was a big turning point in our relationship. Where we started to realize that you were kind of feeling, like watching my parenting was so different from the parenting that you had, that it was like, I feel like you had to kind of explore that, like why that was kind of bothering you almost, that the kids weren't getting kind of this more traditional style authoritative parenting. What do you think about that? 

[00:46:04] Mel: Yeah, and I mean, I don't know, like what is the quote unquote "right way" to parent at all. And I know my parents were doing the best they could and they probably thought they were doing a lot better than their parents had, which I'm sure they were.

[00:46:21] I think one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about is just kind of the notion of tough love. I feel like a message I got a lot was just like, life is tough. People are going to screw you. Like I'm trying to help you be a better person by kind of like, I don't know, just making sure that you understand that life is not fair and not everyone's gonna be good to you.

[00:46:43] So I feel like I kind of like approach things with like a more of a negative bias, whereas like the total opposite could be true. That like, people will show up for you and you will get help that you need if you ask. And that you don't have to do everything by yourself.

[00:47:01] So that's been kind of interesting to think about that. And part of it also, I mean, I was raised like very Catholic, and so just believing that I'm actually good inherently instead of inherently sinful. And being in baptism and salvation. 

[00:47:22] But it is very different, in terms of how you look at kids. Because you, you know, seeing that they're inherently good is really different from, like, kids are little, are gonna pull one over you. And if without like strong discipline, they're gonna be, you know, run all over you and take advantage of you. It's yeah, it, it's really kind of challenged that. Those beliefs that I didn't realize were kind of baked into my upbringing. 

[00:47:56] Josie: Right, right. I mean, parenting for me has been one of the, the ways that I've done the most healing, I think for my inner child. It's been such an experience of reparenting my inner child, and I think I've watched you do that too, and it's been incredible to watch you reparent yourself in a lot of ways and really have that softness towards little Melissy.

[00:48:31] Mel: Yeah, I mean, I definitely think like the more you can grow as a person, the better. The more capacity you will have to be to be a good parent. It seems to be like a thing that happens concurrently. It's like you don't need to fix yourself before you have kids. Right. It's like, as you said, like something that happens in the process of.

[00:48:55] But of course, like actively trying to be conscious of your thoughts and, and your habits. And why do I think this is the way? I think that that that's how you kind of change yourself and, and you're modeling that for your kids. 

[00:49:11] Josie: That's such a good point. It's not something you can do beforehand. 

[00:49:15] Mel: I mean, I thought the same thing too. I was like, if I can make myself perfect enough, then I will attract the partner that I need. But I think one of the reasons you and I came together was to do growth and heal old wounds. And of course we're like doing that together, and it's ongoing. It's not like, we did it once and now we ride up into the sunset. 

[00:49:41] Josie: Right. Yeah, it's so true. It's like learning on the job. 

[00:49:48] Mel: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Good one. 

[00:49:50] Josie: Yeah. That's what parenting feels like for sure, for me. Yeah, and healing in our relationship. Yeah, so true. You can't just do it and then try to do those things or attract those things.

[00:50:04] It's like, no, you're doing it as you're, as you're going along. Yeah. That makes so much sense. Okay, I'm wondering if there's anything that you've learned from me and I'll talk about what I've learned from you as a parent, like in our family. 

[00:50:23] Mel: Yeah, I remember one thing you told me kind of early on, cause I was like kind of amazed that you were going, I mean like when the kids need you, you like respond right away. And like to me, it always felt kind of over the top, honestly. And again, this is kind of like, I don't know, a reflection I guess, of like maybe how I was raised or just that I tend to be like a very self-reliant person. Like, I don't need any help from anybody.

[00:50:56] But I remember you said like "a need that's met goes away." And that's been like a really, I was just like, whoa. Not just for parenting because I've witnessed that with the kids is like, when you are attentive to the kids and even if it's ever, what feels to me a trivial thing, but of course like, to the kid is like a big deal.

[00:51:24] Like when you respond to them and you take it seriously and you address it, then they kind of like go back to whatever they're doing and it goes away. I mean not that that's necessarily the goal, it just seems to be like the outcome of addressing the need. 

[00:51:43] Anyway, you know, going back to how parenting also means parenting yourself. Like, I think about that for myself. Like what needs do I have that are maybe unmet or not met well. And is that something that I could do or is that something that I could, you know, God forbid, ask you for help meeting. So that was like a pretty potent nugget of information.

[00:52:17] Josie: Oh, that's so funny. Yeah, I remember that. And I was gonna say, what I learned from you was how to, well, I've learned so much from you, but a couple things that are coming to mind is to have better boundaries around my time, and my energy, and who gets access to my time and my energy. And with that, like putting myself first, in some situations where I wasn't. You've really, I've learned so much around those types of things from you.

[00:52:56] Because I think before I was just really responding all the time of like, okay, you need me, I'm here. Or like, yes, you have access to me 24/7. It was kind of like, no. There needed to be a more of a balance there so that I wouldn't burn out or, you know, become resentful or whatever it was.

[00:53:24] So that's been a huge learning curve for me is to like sort of take back my energy in a lot of different scenarios of like, oh wow, I was really spread thin. 

[00:53:42] Mel: Yeah, I've noticed you've gotten a lot better at that too. And and saying things like, I'm gonna go here and do this, and when you're ready to talk or you're ready, you know, to come sit with me, like, come sit with me.

[00:54:01] I think that's cool. One of the things that my therapist has brought up is like letting kids know that they have impact. And that's not something I've necessarily done yet, at least directly with the kids, but I think that's important just, as like a care and feeding of humans to do is to like, the things you say do matter. 

[00:54:27] Like you can apologize later, but like, when you say these things or you act this way, you know, that has impact. And I feel this way when I hear that, or you do that or whatever. Instead of them thinking like, oh, you're just, you have no feelings and you just, you know, you're just this like magical creature who just exists for their benefit. 

[00:54:53] Josie: Right. Like, it's okay for them to see me hurt by something they said or for me to have a real reaction to something that they did or they said. And I don't have to be like this, quote unquote "perfect mother," where I'm just pleasant at all times. 

[00:55:12] Mel: Right, like, you don't just have to take shit all the time.

[00:55:15] Josie: Right, right. Yeah, that's a good one. That's a really good one. 

[00:55:21] So I'm wondering if you have any advice for blended families, queer blended families? 

[00:55:30] Mel: I would say like one, if you can do some couples therapy, if that's something you know, you have access to. God, it's so worth the investment. We did couples therapy like pretty early on in our relationship.

[00:55:45] And it was so critical not just for our relationship, but I think for understanding what our family could be. If we have like the openness to let it be what it wants to be. And I will say like as a person who's coming into what felt like an existing family unit, it felt really nice to have a therapist, like validate my point of view.

[00:56:17] Because especially early on, I kind of felt like my feelings and my needs were like not important. Because because there were kids in the picture and like Josie was definitely more like the hands-on parent. So couples therapy is so great. I remember you had a friend who was in a pretty similar situation to ours.

[00:56:38] And you were able to talk to them cause they were in kind of a similar, they had like a similar story to you where they were like married to a man, got divorced, had kids, began a queer relationship. Now they're married to this new person who was coming in as a stepparent.

[00:56:56] And then I talked to someone else who was in my role as a stepparent. And anyway, for me it was just like really validating. I wish there were, I was able to connect in person with some like queer stepparents that still I wish that I have. Cause I don't really have any friends who are in this situation like stepparent in a straight relationship or a queer relationship.

[00:57:23] But anyway, yeah. If there's anyone you know, in your network or even online, it can be really helpful to share your feelings that, that might be kind of tricky to share with your, your partner or your spouse. So if there's any like Facebook groups and stuff.

[00:57:43] I personally, the Facebook groups felt like a little too remote for me to feel bonded, but everyone's different. And I know these Facebook groups exist, so that could be a resource. 

[00:57:55] The third thing I'd recommend, and this might also be again, you know, like pretty dependent on your living situation and allergies and all that. But if you're able to get a pet, especially a dog or even better a couple dogs. I man, it really, we got Junie maybe two years into our relationship. 

[00:58:20] And it really kind of gelled our family together to have this dog that like we were obsessed with and the kids were obsessed with. And dogs just bring so much, joyful energy and fun and can really diffuse tension. And then when we got Wren a couple years later, it just like really felt complete. 

[00:58:44] So anyway, and I mean to this day, like the dogs are such a way we bond as a family. We like all went, dogs included, to the bakery the other weekend and I think it was like the highlight of all of our weekends. Just to all be together with the dogs and like going somewhere. 

[00:59:04] Josie: I know I was like taking pictures the whole time because everyone was just laughing and like smiling. And the dogs were so happy and we're just like, all we're doing is driving to the bakery, but we're with the dogs and we're all together and it's so fun. 

[00:59:22] Mel: Yeah. It really makes it feel like a family unit, which can be nice when it's like a blended family. So, yeah, so those would be my my three pieces of advice. 

[00:59:35] Josie: Okay. To recap, the first one was... 

[00:59:39] Mel: So yeah, if couples therapy, is something that might be available to you, couples therapy is just invaluable. Especially, if you're kind of feeling out of place it can be very validating to have a third party. I'm not gonna say like, stand up for you, but also just like, kind of bolster your point of view. And if there are any, you know, folks in your network who are queer stepparents or queer parents in a blended family talking to them can be really helpful and validating. Or like online groups. 

[01:00:17] Josie: Right, that's number two. 

[01:00:18] Mel: Or if there is someone that you know in person. And then the third thing is pets. Get a dog. 

[01:00:25] Josie: Get a dog. I wonder if cats would have the same effect. I don't know. 

[01:00:32] Mel: Yeah. I mean, I like cats. We just happened to get a dog and now we have two dogs, so. 

[01:00:39] Josie: Yeah, we had to get our dog a dog.

[01:00:45] Yeah. Those are really, really, really good pieces of advice. And I will say too, that for the second piece talking to someone who's in a similar position as you, the person I found was actually not a friend, but she was a friend of a friend. So my friend knew I was going through this situation and was like, oh my gosh, I know someone who went through a really similar situation, can I connect you? 

[01:01:09] And I was like, oh, yes, please. Like amazing. So you might not know that you know someone. You may be like one or two degrees separated from someone who's in a similar situation as you. So like putting the word out to your immediate network that you're looking to connect with someone who has a similar situation could, can actually work out.

[01:01:35] You may not know that there's someone in sort of like your outer networks that might be able to connect with you. 

[01:01:45] Mel: Yeah. Good point. Cause the person I spoke with was also a friend of, of a friend. Like, I remember we talked on the phone and that was like the first time we had talked to each other. So it was like a little awkward, but it was good. And I appreciated that my friends were looking out and trying to think of if they knew of anyone. 

[01:02:06] Josie: Yeah, totally. And then I just wanna say for folks who are listening who may be a part of a blended family or might be thinking maybe you'll be a part of a blended family at some point, or wanna be, I did not know if it was ever gonna feel like a tight nuclear family again. I didn't know if I was gonna have that feeling again in a blended family. 

[01:02:29] And I absolutely do. Like, it's become this really cohesive, tight little container of love that we've created. And it does feel so natural and easy in a lot of ways. It just, it did happen over a period of years and we worked towards it. And it's become just like one of the biggest joys of my life, the four of us together, well, six of us with the dogs. 

[01:03:01] Mel: Yeah. I mean, I will say like maybe also don't force it so much too. Like let it become what it's gonna be. Because that can also be really challenging if you feel like you're failing to meet some standard or ideal that you have. And yeah, like, it just kind of feels shitty, but like, I'm sure everyone's gonna bring something great and unique to the table, and, and eventually you'll find, you know, that what, what brings you all together. 

[01:03:36] And I think if there's ways to find too, like, I mean, to your point about building it, Joe said about like the activities that everyone likes to do together. That can help. I think in the beginning, maybe it felt like we had to do everything together and be together all the time. But now I think we have kind of like a good situation where it's like, I'll maybe go climb with friends and you'll spend some time with the kids alone and then we might all go to the bakery together or do like movie night or family game night or something. 

[01:04:21] But I think not having the pressure that like we must be together all the time like just totally engaged, like this perfect nuclear family is what's kind of enabled us to like, find our natural flow together.

[01:04:38] Josie: Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. You don't wanna feel like you're forcing something to become this quote unquote "nuclear family". I mean, what does that even mean anymore? I think for me, I couldn't have, I couldn't have even imagined or envisioned what we are now at the beginning, like now, you know, do you know what I mean?

[01:04:58] It's like we created something even more beautiful than I thought it could be. Because it's, it's all of us coming together, I think, as our authentic selves. And it's, it's just become this whole new thing. It's been like a new creation, like a new invention. Whereas before I had all these ideas in my head of like what family meant or what family should be.

[01:05:24] Cool, babe. Thanks for talking this out with me. 

[01:05:29] Mel: Yeah, anytime. And yeah, I mean if there are any other resources that people know of, of, for queer Stepparents that it'd be great to know. I mean, like I said, I tend to be more of an in-person person. But there's not a lot out there. It, definitely is geared more toward like stepparents who are in heterosexual relationships.

[01:05:57] And I remember trying to find books and stuff and just none of them really felt applicable to me and our situation. So, yeah, it, it can be challenging for sure. And God, I don't know if I necessarily have advice in what to do. It can be hard. So, yeah, as much as you can, if you can find any sort of community or people to talk to, either online or in person, that can just help you feel a little less alone.

[01:06:31] Josie: Yeah, totally. And if anyone knows of any step parenting, blended family, queer blended family resources, let us know. Send, send them in.

[01:06:46] All right. Thanks, baby. You're the best.

[01:06:50] Mel: All right. Thanks baby. I'll see you. I'll see you in like 10 seconds. 

[01:06:52] Josie: Thanks for coming on the podcast. 

[01:06:55] Mel: It's a pleasure. Love you. Thank you for having me. 

[01:07:00] Josie: Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility Podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz.

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