Episode 15 - Morgane Richardson: “The Beautiful Thing About Queer Conception”

"The babies are a cute part of it, but I love teaching people how to take up space."

Morgane Richardson's dive into the ocean of perinatal care has been deep and wide. She has worn so many hats in the world of birth since 2012, including doula, health educator, certified breastfeeding counselor, and more. In this conversation, she and Josie discuss her own birth and fertility experience as one half of an interracial queer couple, how to bring joy into the process of birth, and the importance of body literacy.

[ID: Headshots of Josie (@intersectionalfertility) and Morgane Richardson (@doulamorgane) on a tan background. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 15.]

Morgane has a true wealth of information and life experience to share from many different sides of the fertility conversation. No matter where you're at in your fertility journey, we hope you receive as much from Morgane's candor and laughter as we did.

Visit wovenbodies.com, to access resources and contribute funds.

Visit @wovenbodies on Instagram or search "Woven Bodies" on Facebook

Visit @doulamorgane to connect with Morgane on Instagram.

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.

Josie (00:00): I'm Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our whole selves.

(00:23) Today, I'm speaking with Morgane Richardson. Morgane has been a doula and a perinatal health educator since 2012 and has worn a variety of hats in this field, including former director of the NYC Doula Collective and head of practitioner relations at All Bodies and co-founder of Woven Bodies. Morgane is also a birth doula, childbirth educator, certified breastfeeding counselor and doula mentor.

She leads doula trainings and facilitates workshops for birth professionals on supporting queer, trans, and gender nonconforming families during the conception and perinatal periods. Morgane holds a B.A. in sociology, anthropology, and art history from Middlebury College, and an M.A. in peace and conflict studies with a focus on gender and peace building from the University for Peace.

(01:18) Welcome to the podcast, Morgane. Thank you so much for being here. 

Morgane (01:21): Thank you so much for having me, I'm so happy this all worked out today. 

Josie: Yes, me too. Will you share with us your pronouns and where in the world you're joining us from today? 

Morgane: Yes, so my name is Morgane Richardson. I use she/her pronouns and I am based in Kingston, New York. Though, I'm originally from Brooklyn, from Dumbo. 

Josie (01:42): And will you kind of, do you have a story to share about what led you to become a doula? What was that path like for you? 

Morgane (01:51): Yeah. So, you know, I think that there, when I think back on how I came to this place, there's so many different things. So I was teaching at Hunter College and the health department and discovered doula work.

But you know, really the, when I really think, you know, what drove me to want to do this particular kind of work? I actually think back to a dear friend of mine, her name was Tumi and she passed away actually 14 years ago today I'm looking at the calendar. 

Josie: Oh, wow. Oh my goodness. 

Morgane (02:22): And you know, Tumi was, she was an incredible restorative justice activist kind of even before I knew what that word meant and, really in her passing. And I think because of the, the way that she died I just wish so much for folks, for Black bodies to really know what it means to give consent. 

Josie: Yes. 

Morgane: You know? To have the power to say no, to have the power to say yes and be heard. To feel the power of, you know, of saying yes, really and to feel the weight of community support behind you.

And that moment of transition so death, but like conception and birth and parenting, I think really offer up opportunities for people to explore more about themselves. And so when I think about, you know, how did I come into being a doula? I really find myself in the perinatal space because, and I found myself here because I wanted people to experience what it feels like to develop an understanding. Of their bodies. 

Josie: Right. 

Morgane (03:22): And how to give that informed consent. So the babies are really a cute part of it. They like, I love the oxytocin rush, but I love really teaching people how to take up space. 

Josie: Awesome. Yeah. 

Morgane: So that's what brought me here. 

Josie: Oh, I love that story. Wow. I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend.

Morgane: Thank you. 

Josie: They sound so special. 

Morgane: Thank you.

Josie (03:43): And interestingly, I just it came to mind, as you were talking about the power of yes and the power of no, specifically as a Black person, Simone Biles, that whole thing that just happened recently. 

Morgane: Oh my goodness. I mean, exactly right. Exactly! 

Josie: Right, yeah.

Morgane (04:00): Having the power to say no, I am not. I will not do that. And I will, you know, both of those are, are incredibly important. And I certainly, you know, I grew up very much so in this space where I was always told, I would have to work harder than the next person and all of that. But, you know, I didn't really understand the power of being able to say yes at my own, because I wanted to say yes, not because it's what I had to do to please somebody else.

Josie: Right. 

Morgane: You know, it took me a long time to figure that out. 

Josie: Yeah. I think that's incredibly difficult in the culture that we're living in. 

Morgane: Yes. A hundred percent. Yes

Josie (04:38): And then what is the story behind or the inspiration for the founding of Woven Bodies? And can you explain to our listeners what Woven Bodies is including the new, sounds like the new iteration of the its physical form, which is super exciting. 

Morgane (04:54): Yeah. Oh, it's so exciting to talk about it. So Woven Bodies is kind of, if you were to go to our website, what we are, our tag is that we're, we are an inclusive perinatal health practice supporting all bodies from conception through parenthood. And, and so within that space, we offer it- I run it with my wife, who is Alexandra Garcia, who's an acupuncturist and doctor of Chinese medicine and acupuncture and herbalist, and we offer fertility support and pregnancy support and postpartum support through a variety of ways.

And so some of those things include childbirth education. Right. We also offer perinatal consultation. So people who are looking to conceive, we offer acupuncture. We just brought on someone who does massage therapy, a really wonderful queer person of color. Who's gonna be doing that with us. We offer queer informed yoga classes queer affirming yoga classes.

(05:51) And then I do a lot of doula mentorship and referrals. So when we're, you know, in terms of the actual space, our goal was always to really make sure that these resources could be accessed from a wide variety of people. So we wanted it to be just online and the pandemic taught us over time, the importance of over time. I mean, the pandemic over the last, almost two years, right? 

Josie (06:17): Right. 

Morgane: Taught us really, the importance of also being in community. So these are all services that we offer online but are also services that we offer in person in our new space, in Kingston, New York, which is really exciting. 

(06:31) And just for the reasoning behind it, which I know you asked, when my wife and I were exploring our own journey to conceive and to create our child, we just. We found that there were so few resources for people who looked like us, and who lived their lives in a similar way. Right. Who were queer, who were in an interracial relationship navigating well, what sperm, what race of sperm? Like how do we do this?

Josie: Right. 

Morgane (07:00): We have all of these big questions and there's nobody there to answer them except for Facebook. And we didn't, you know, we kind of had to pick, pull, pick, and pull and create spaces to get answers to big questions. And that's why we created Woven Bodies was the hope that you can get these resources in one place, right. 

And since we've started that, it's been also really beautiful to see so many other people doing similar work. And that, I mean, that just warms my heart. It tickles my soul. You know, it's really incredible that these resources are made more available to folks like us. 

Josie (07:37): Totally. And so is the format structure of Woven Bodies, I've looked at it before and it looks like you can like check out videos, is that right? Or that was, is that?

Morgane: Yes! 

Josie: And, or do you have any like live also like workshops and stuff or is it mostly all recorded? 

Morgane (07:54): Yeah. So one of the parts of Woven Bodies is that we do have classes that we offer with professionals in the field. Often, not often, always. These are people who are queer informed, queer affirming. 

So for example, we have some amazing midwives chatting with us about doing IUI at home. We have, we also have an amazing endocrinologist who talks to us about IVF and clinic. And then we have some people talking about inducing lactation, and so those are the types of classes that we offer and those are always live.

And then we record them so they can be accessed online any point for people. 

Josie: Amazing.

Morgane (08:35): And if you take the childbirth ed classes, you also get access to all of that. 

Josie: Okay. Okay. That's such an amazing resource. When I was looking through it I was like, I want to watch all of these. 

Morgane: Oh! Okay. We'll make that happen.

Josie (08:53): Such a great resource and yeah, that's such a good point about the pandemic showing us the value of in person community. I didn't think that that's what you were gonna say, but I was like, yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, I was thinking almost like the opposite. Almost like, yeah, we've been able to do so much like online connection throughout the pandemic and that's all we've been doing, but yeah, you're exactly right.

That it's actually shown us, you know, just how important it is to be in person. Yeah. And I loved seeing, yeah, it's it just, it's really irreplaceable. Like, you know, it's not the same meeting with people on Zoom or, you know, having that sort of virtual connection. 

Morgane (09:34): And I think people, you know, it is important to have access, to be able to utilize the internet, to share and gather information, right. 

Josie: For sure. 

Morgane: It stretches out further than we can see, and that's, that's incredible. And there are people who live, you know, I'm lucky I live in, I grew up in New York City and was raised in New York City. And there's so many resources there, but even in moving to Kingston up here, I recognize there are fewer resources in smaller cities like this.

(10:02) And so the internet allows this information to spread, but it's, I really, you know, we need touch. We need relationships with one another, right? We need to feel, especially if you're parenting or thinking about getting pregnant or trying, you know, it's important to have other people around you lifting you up.

Josie (10:23): Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So true. That was so important to me, especially yeah, during the fertility journey and with having small kids, like having that support system was so crucial. 

Morgane: Yeah. Oh my goodness. That was the hardest part for, for me, for sure. It was, you know, never being a parent before to this particular child and not knowing, you know, is this a normal phase that's happening? Or, am I doing this right? Or, are they supposed to walk right now? 

Josie: Totally. Are we missing some major milestones here or are we good? 

Morgane (10:59): Right. And what is my now I find myself now that our child's in camp, I find myself looking and really observing. Sometimes I'm really just staring at other parents. Going oh, wow. That was a great technique that you just did gonna hold onto that one. 

Josie: Right? Right. Totally. I love that. Well, yeah. I got to see, I know you posted recently some footage of your new in person space and it just looks beautiful. 

Morgane (11:27): Oh, thank you. I so appreciate hearing that, you know, it's a, it feels like a scary thing enter- I mean, oh, it's always right when you're putting down money and opening a new space and trusting that people will come to you. That's scary. And it's also, I recognize in this process that I just haven't seen that many Black owned, queer owned businesses. 

Josie: Absolutely. Yes. 

Morgane: You know? And I have a dear friend who said to me, you have it. And this is an incredible opportunity to shape it into being whatever you want it to be. There are no standards. And I went, yeah.

Josie (12:06): Yes. Oh, I just got these bumps. I love that. 

Morgane: Right. There's there's no parti- we just, we had a meeting with somebody and I said to them, you know, this is yours too.

(12:19) And that to say, to be able to say this isn't just our business and our family business, this can be all of ours and really mean that, and to create a space for that means a lot, you know, and it it's transformative. And I feel really grateful to be part of it. 

Josie (12:35): Yeah. That is so hugely important right now. It's amazing. So cool. And you kind of started talking a little bit about, but I would love to hear more about your fertility journey. What was that like, were there any, like, what were the challenges specifically? You kind of mentioned like the sperm, like which sperm do we use? But like, particularly as a queer, interracial couple, like, what were the challenges that came up and how did you navigate those?

Morgane (13:02): Yeah. So, you know, I'll start with saying that. I do feel like I was really fortunate that we came into our fertility journey informed about the perinatal process. So I had been a doula for many years prior to Alexandra had, I think she had, yeah, she had been an acupuncturist for a few years.

Meaning had graduated for a few years. And so I came into this, the fertility space and wanting to expand our family with knowledge of, you know, what midwives I wanted to be in contact with and who I felt was gonna be really affirming. And I knew it was because I had attended births with them.

(13:38) Which is huge, right. And that means that's from, what practice do I wanna have help us with the insemination. We did an IUI at home with a midwife. 

And on that, when there was a moment in time when I just got this feeling that, that particular midwife who I love, who's still a dear friend. Wasn't going to be the one to get us pregnant. I just had this, like, there's something that's I feel like there's something that's missing. 

There's, you know, my body and her understanding of my body. It's just not connecting right now in this moment. And I told them, I was able to really strongly, you know, to kindly say, I think I'm just gonna try with somebody else for this next cycle.

(14:18) And they were so receptive because we have that, you know, we had that relationship and sure enough that the other midwife was the one to get us pregnant. And I view them all as very much a part of our fertility journey. They all, you know, when I talk about them, say they all got us pregnant, right. Those two midwives got us pregnant. It wasn't just the person who, you know, helped us get a positive test. 

Josie (14:42): Right. 

Morgane (14:43): But you know, I, we had that ability to understand and to seek out and to know which care providers to seek out. That said, you know, there were some challenges. And so one of the big questions that you had, you brought up, I brought it up was which sperm, what kind of sperm are we gonna choose?

Right. You know, do we use a Black donor? Do we use a white donor? I was at that point, you know, it's one thing to love somebody whose race is different from your own. Right. And, whose, you know, ethnicity and class, so many different things are different from your own. And to work through that yourself, you know, and, and find, yeah, just.

(15:23) You strengthen that bond together, but it is another thing bringing a baby into the world. Right. And saying, and really having to think that through of what is this child's relationship going to be? Not necessarily with another parent, but with the whole family. 

Josie: Right. Good point.

Morgane (15:38): Right. And how is now the whole family? How are they gonna, you know, they might be like progressive on paper. But there are things that we're gonna have to work through, you know? 

Josie: Absolutely. 

Morgane (15:51): And so that those are big conversations that, that we had to have for sure. And we continue to have, I mean, it's an ongoing process.

But yeah, you know, I think first that was probably one of the biggest things that came up. I will also say that thinking about the birth itself. You know, I made the conscious decision to choose a home birth and that was available to me because of, you know, my health and where I was located in health insurance, cuz the cost I know is it's expensive.

(16:20) But I also was very much had in the back of my mind or the forefront, a fear of dying in childbirth was there a hundred percent. And so that impacted my fertility journey was thinking about, well, once I get pregnant, what is that gonna mean? You know? And I didn't realize that until later on, Alexandra was really good at allowing me to feel what I needed to feel.

But she certainly also, after I gave birth about a month after she had came up and she said, I was terrified. You know, I was terrified that you could have died in this process. And I didn't wanna tell you cuz you were in it and you, you know, right. You don't need to bring my shit to this. 

Josie (17:03): Right, some good boundaries, good boundaries.

Morgane: Good boundaries. That's we have lots of beautiful therapy. 

Josie: That is real. Yeah. 

Morgane (17:11): Along those lines, there was a point where, so our child was at 37 weeks, 36 and a half weeks we found out that they were breach and... 

Josie: Oh boy. 

Morgane: And you know, and it was, this talks about really affirming care. And our, one of our midwives, you know, said we are gonna do everything to keep you out of the hospital.

(17:35) And, I didn't, again, it was, it was very, it was very clear that it was, we're gonna keep you out of the hospital because I know the facts- I know the statistics. I know, you know, What has been coming up for you and I've been listening, you know, and so we ended up doing an external version at home twice and, you know, and thinking I really, because I wanted that and they said, I want to trust you is what they said to me.

You know, I want to trust you that you feel like this is the right decision for yourself. And when I'm thinking about supporting other people in the fertility process, that's really, really what I wanna hear is that yeah. You trust your care provider, but do they trust you? And the decisions that you need to make for yourself.

Josie (18:21): Great question. Yeah. Yeah. That needs to be a two way street. 

Morgane: A hundred percent. 

Josie: Ugh. I love that. And that's, I love that they really worked with you to make that happen to just to make sure you were able to have that home birth. What a gift.

Morgane: It was, yeah, they really, it was such a gift, you know, and acupuncture and lots of moxa. 

Josie: I was gonna say I bet Alex was on top of that.

Morgane: We were doing spinning babies and like the whole thing, right? Yeah.

Josie (18:55): Oh, I love that. And then what were some of the joys of your fertility journey that maybe were there specifically because of being queer or an interracial couple? Or were there any that you felt like stood out? 

Morgane (19:10): Yeah, you know, I mean, I think that one of the biggest joys was, and I feel really lucky that we actually, I wouldn't have said this four years ago, five years ago when we were trying, but in some ways I feel really lucky that it was such an intentional process for us.

And so we really even from you know, thinking about sitting down and looking at donors and figuring out, who do we want as a donor? You know, who do we want this child to potentially meet someday? And do we, like, let's find a person who we can talk to and communicate with at some, you know, and our particular donor, they said that their parent was an acupuncturist and we're like, oh, well that! 

Josie (19:53): Oh, that's perfect.

Morgane (19:55): That's easy, you know, but you know, and that was really nice to have to be really intentional about it and as hard as it was in a, I mean, financially, it was so incredibly difficult. We would kind of like work, work, work, save, buy vials. It didn't work. Wait, six months, try again. You know, so it was a long process and, and that was hard, but it was really nice also that I was able to be thinking about, what am I putting in my body?

How does my body feel? I was getting acupuncture weekly and massages once a month and you know, and it, I think it was, and I, it was the best I'd ever felt in my body. Was that process of trying to get pregnant. And so emotionally it was difficult, but I, I felt a lot of joy because my body just felt like it was fully nourished.

Josie (20:44): Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Cuz it's you really do have that spaciousness to focus on yourself. 

Morgane: You know, and we ate, like we ate, just ate so beautifully and then you have a toddler and you're like, oh, where's the tit?

I wonder if we would do that again for a second, but you know, just right. Cause of space and time and you know, different realities, but it was really special. 

Josie: Yes. I was gonna say that too, but I didn't wanna burst any bubbles about number two. 

Morgane: I mean there's no, yeah. There's no way that they were. You know, I'm like, oh. 

Josie: But at least, yeah. At least you got to experience it once. 

Morgane (21:23): There you go. Right. There was that one, one moment. And, and now it's, you know, we think about it and I, we've over the, COVID has changed things a little bit and our thinking about family expansion. But the times when we've sat down and looked at donors, it's like, okay, you have five minutes. Okay. You go look, I've got the kid. These are good. Very different. 

Josie: It's a little less. Yeah. It's a little less like of a, co-creation more of like you do this. While I, yeah, exactly. 

Morgane: And that's OK, too. Right. So for all of the folks who are listening like that, that's its own fun way of exploring conception and expanding your family. So, yeah. 

Josie (22:07): Absolutely. And that's what I love too about queer conception in particular is that there's so many ways to do it. Yeah. That's just it's so you know, the options are, are so much more expansive. 

Morgane (22:18): They really are. You know, we, when we were looking at conceiving first, certainly first time around like I was sharing a little bit, we didn't have enough money to be hoarding vials, that's not a, which is such a mean way to say that.

But, you know, we didn't, we didn't have a lot of money to have lots of vials. And in my mind, I would've said, you know, that would've been really nice that if we had multiple kids, they could have all shared the same donor and it just, that wasn't possible for us. And, but I also, the more I thought about it, the more I realized, but families come in so many different ways and, you know, and any offspring is gonna- offspring. That's what they put on, for folks listening, that's the donor, sperm donor bank information language. 

Josie (23:06): I gotcha. OK. I was like, I like the word offspring. I think it's cute. 

Morgane: It is cute. That's what if you go in places like the donor sibling registry, they'll write, they'll write how many offspring do you have?

Josie: Okay. Gotcha. 

Morgane: That's where my mind is. 

Josie: Gotcha. Gotcha. 

Morgane (23:21): But is not how I address our address, our child. Hey, offspring number four! But yeah, you know, and it just, that is the beautiful thing about queer conception though. Is that you can, you know, you can have kids through adoption, you can have kids with somebody else.

You can have kids with your partner. You can have, you know, there's so many different ways to do this. There isn't one particular standard or set of protocols that you must follow. Right? 

Josie (23:45): Exactly. Yeah. I saw a post recently on Instagram of a queer family that had decided intentionally to form with four parents and one kid.

Morgane: That's the way to do it. I mean. 

Josie: Isn't it? I agree. I was like, that's a good ratio of adults to children. 

Morgane: That's great. I feel like my wife is secretly out there. Sometimes she'll be like, that's, that's so nice to have multiple wives. I'm like, I think you're secretly out here looking at who would be a good, you know, person to bring into the fold.

Josie: Yes, totally. Oh my God. 

Morgane: It takes a village. 

Josie (24:23): It absolutely does. It absolutely does. Well, yeah. Do you have any tips for, I'm just thinking too about like folks who, who don't have that background of being a doula or don't know, have the connections to what midwives to choose and you know, or a spouse who's also in the health and wellness field, you know what I mean? 

Like you guys came to this with so much you know, useful information. So I wonder if you have any tips for folks who are trying to conceive or even like, ways they could advocate for themselves in more heteronormative settings or yeah. Anything that comes to mind you. 

Morgane (25:06): I think the first thing that I would recommend at really at any point in the process, but especially if you're just starting or if you're hitting a roadblock or, you know, is sitting down and picking up a piece of paper or your phone or whatever it is that you have to take notes and just think about and jot down, you know, what are my hopes?

What are my intentions? For this process. How, what is going to make this feel? And you use the term joy. So, you know, what is gonna make me feel really joyful or what is going to bring joy into this process, which might be difficult, right. And also asking yourself, you know, what is important to you? How do you wanna be treated throughout this process?

What makes you feel safe? We know that that helps to release oxytocin, which is an important part of conception, but also just life. What you know how do you best receive information? 

Josie (26:01): Oh, wow. That's a great question. 

Morgane (26:03): I think is important. You know, are you somebody who like you receive information and you need to sit with it for a little bit before you can make a decision.

And so it might mean that you need somebody, right? Who's gonna say, I'm just presenting you with the options. And I want you to go home and sit with that. Or are you somebody who like needs somebody to just kind of tell them or tell you how things are going to be? And that, you know, we all function very differently.

And I think once you have answers to those kind of questions, then you can go down and start thinking or rethinking. Did I find the right care provider for myself? Right. Did I find the right clinic for me. Am I doing the, you know, am I spending enough time with myself by myself? So that I can really cultivate joy.

(26:51) Maybe that's sitting, you know, getting acupuncture and massage. Maybe that's making sure that during this process, you're spending time with a close friend and that's gonna bring you joy. Maybe it's making sure that, you know, every, you only have a set amount of hours. Each day with your partner, if you, if there's a partner or partners that you can talk about this fertility process.

Right, and the, like we had a rule where we couldn't talk about it when we had dates. So that wasn't a, that wasn't a date topic that we could bring up. And not at the dinner table, right. And so it really made it so that we could still be in relationship. That was important to my wife that we, we weren't always talking about me getting pregnant. Right. 

(27:31) Josie: Yeah. That's a great rule to have. 

Morgane: Yeah, it was for us, it worked, you know, and yeah. I mean, sometimes I was like, Ugh! No no no, it's totally urgent. 

Josie: yeah. But it can, so it's like a slippery slope. It can so quickly take over your whole life, yeah.

Morgane (27:47): And it does, right. It really can. So that's one, you know, I also recommend that. People often don't, I didn't even fully, but people often don't really know about their own reproductive bodies. And so they don't understand their cycles. You know, we don't understand our cycles. 

So I recommend working with an, an acupuncturist or an herbalist or somebody, you know, somebody who understands and works with cycles to have a better understanding of what's going in your body, no matter how you're gonna get pregnant.

Having sex, doing IUI or ICI at home, IVF, like all of these, it's important to understand what your body is doing and it might look different, right. And that's gonna help inform, you know, just for you, it's your body literacy. Whether or not, you know, you get pregnant that particular cycle, but it's also for the process itself. 

So that's another big recommendation and, you know, I actually wish that people would take childbirth education even before they're pregnant. 

Josie (28:45): Yes, absolutely. 

Morgane: So that's another body literacy. If you have that understanding, it, it really one it's less pressure in nine months to get that information. 

Josie: Yes. Cause nine months goes fast. 

Morgane: Well, and you spend the first three months, you know, excited and maybe also a little nervous and you know, and it, and then suddenly you only have a couple extra months to go. Yes. You're, there's a lot to plan in that period of time. 

Josie: Totally. Yeah. And you don't wanna be cramming towards the end?

Morgane (29:19): No, yeah. So those are, you know, those are some tips and I think, especially for, for queer folks and Black birthing bodies in particular, you know, I would say really making sure you're sitting down and asking yourself those questions and only receiving and asking for care from people who kind of fit what you need.

Right. And that might even mean hiring a doula who can help you with that process. Right. A fertility doula who can help walk you through each step. 

Josie: Oh, there's a fertility doula. That's amazing. 

Morgane (29:49): Yeah, we do some, I do some of that work too, and some of us, so it's, it's just, it's this right. It's saying let's, let's get on the phone once a week and, and talk through what are your questions?

Okay. Let's help you figure out, based on where you live and what you're sharing, these sperm banks might be the best, like look into them. These might be great for you and you wanna have a relationship with the donor at some point, this one's gonna be great. Right. 

Josie: Right. Oh my gosh. That is genius. I love that there's a doula for so many different things than I imagined. I always felt like doula just meant a birthing doula, like during labor. But as I'm learning more and more, there's like a doula for all sorts of steps along the, the whole process. 

Morgane: Yes. I need more parenting doulas. 

Josie: Ah, yes, I need a parenting doula.

Morgane: If somebody who's listening, wants to write me, as a parenting doula.

Josie (30:44): And I loved how you outlined, or specifically, you know, want folks to like sit down and write about what it would look like if everything went really well. So that like, to write about like, almost like you know, the final result or the final picture so that you know what you're working towards and you can use that as like a really quick way to check in and say yes or no to things, cuz it's like you have a measuring stick. 

Morgane: Yeah, exactly. You know, and it, and it's this I've been doing a lot of this reframing this year of saying, well not, is it not saying, you know what I don't want, but a really starting to say, well, what is it that I do want.

I personally didn't I haven't spent, I was saying this in the beginning. I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about what does that yes mean. You know, why am I saying yes? And, and it's really thinking, well, what do I want? And how do I make sure that the people that I'm bringing into this space are going to help match, are gonna match that.

Josie (31:41): Exactly. Cause if you can like get there in your mind, then you can like energetically match or not match with that day to day. I love that, I love that reframe. 

Morgane: Exactly. It's overwhelming to constantly say no, that's not. Right no, you know. 

Josie: Right, Yeah. It could, and then it's like, well, what is right?

Morgane: Exactly yeah. So anyhow. Yeah, it's just, it's a tool that works for me and hopefully it works for somebody else. 

Josie (32:10): I love that so much. And then another question I was gonna ask you, which you kind of, which you answered was like where to start in the process. I think probably a good place to start would be that body literacy to start working with someone, to track your cycle and know what's going on and yeah. Would, do you think that that's a good place to start? 

Morgane (32:29): I do. I think that that's probably the best place to start. You know, I think that contacting, you know, your acupuncturist, somebody who can, an herbalist, somebody who can really help you get your, understand your cycles and maybe balance your cycles, right. Is important. 

I also think that it is fun to start dreaming about, you know, if you are using a donor, that's a fun place. Just that can be actually a really fun thing to do for some people, you know, if you're wanting to incorporate that. But just for like, I certainly had fun looking at donors.

Josie: Oh cool. 

Morgane: It was such an odd process, but it was fun. 

Josie (33:05): Yeah. I could see how that would be fun, cause it's like daydreaming, like kind of like going down all these different possibilities. 

Morgane: Exactly. You know, and it's, you know, you read like, oh, this person has a cleft chin, that's so cute! Or this person's, you know, really tall. Ooh. What would that look like? 

Josie: Yeah. Oh my God. 

Morgane: It's an odd little, you know, I never did online dating cause my wife and I met so early, but it kind of feels like I'm getting a little glimpsed into online dating. 

Josie: Yes. That was the thought that I had. I was like, it, it seems like that fun, like when you're on Bumble kind of swiping left or swiping right. 

Morgane (33:44): Exactly. We're like, no. Okay. Yeah. I add, you add your favorite. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, I think that, that's it. And then also, you know, I think giving yourself space and grace to feel all of the range of emotions is important, you know, in the process. 

And so making sure that you're taking care of your body and whatever that looks like for you reaching out to an acupuncturist or herbalist, you understand your cycles and then also figuring out what, what can you do for fun? How do you add a little bit of joy into this process for yourself? 

Josie (34:18): Yes. Yeah. So important. So last question, is there anything you wish you would've known about or done differently in your fertility journey? 

Morgane (34:29): Yes, no. Yes and no. No, because I think that it, I would say no because everything is in, in my view is as it should be, you know, we have, the process was such an incredible, beautiful learning process.

It was hard while we were in it. I think I know that, you know, we have an incredible child and our family unit is really beautiful. And, and so there's nothing that I would change. That said, I think that, I wish I had had looking back, I wish that I had looked at how we were gonna fund this a little bit more.

(35:04) And so that's one thing, you know we kind of, like I said, we did it month to month. We'd save and then go ahead. And we just didn't have a lot of financial literacy around saving for this particular thing. You know and we made it work and we paid it all off and it was, you know, it's all fine, but that's something that I hear a lot is people will actually go in, right. People go into debt, trying to expand their family. 

And, and so I wish that I had really thought that out just a little bit more. I also think, you know, in terms of, there was a point in time when I was honestly sad about not having the same donor. And so that's probably part of the financial literacy aspect.

(35:44) So I think it's important for people to be thinking about. And at the same time, I've come fully through and on the other side of that, and, you know, and really recognizing that families come in so many different ways. And once you have your children with you, it doesn't matter.

You know, it really like the, you forget about the sperm donor. You forget about, you know, some not always, you don't forget about, but it becomes less important, right? The process how you got there. 

Josie (36:14): Right, absolutely. Yeah. That makes sense. I know sperm is not cheap. 

Morgane: No, I always look at the prices when I'm right before I'm about to teach a class and the average, least expensive per vials, like $800, $900, you know, and you need two, if you're gonna do an IUI or ICI, and that's without thinking about even the care leading up to, so your acupuncture visits before, if that's what you're gonna do, and your, the midwife who does the IUI or the clinic that's gonna do an IUI or IVF? 

Josie: Totally, totally. 

Morgane (36:52): So it adds up fast. I think we probably spent about like $15,000, which is on the low end compared to most people.

Josie: Oh my gosh. Yeah, that is wild. And I had a recently a friend emailed me or messaged me something about insurance companies, covering IVF and how the languaging that they use for the codes that they need just doesn't include queer folks, cuz it's like, they'll only cover it if you've been trying to conceive for six months.

So then it's like, well, what about? You know what I mean? It's just like, oh, it's this, it places this whole other burden on queer folks to try to figure out how to get it paid for through insurance. You know how to prove that, how to work with insurance companies to do that. It just seems absurd.

Morgane (37:41): And at six months, it's proving that you've been trying to conceive for six consecutive months. And so that could be, you know, you've been doing IUIs or ICIs, but that's out of pocket, right, right. For six months. And so if you're assuming that it's at least $2,000 each month, I mean, that's, that's a lot of money already.

Yeah. But I definitely, you know, I've known, I've known some people, not us, but I've known some people who said that they had a male partner. 

Josie: That's what I was wondering. I'm like, there's gotta be some loopholes that cause like them trying to prove that would be tricky. 

Morgane (38:15): Yeah. yeah. I've had some people who've also lived in, you know, larger home and family environments and have said, well, I've been trying with my friend, who's our roommate, you know, who's been living here and they can't say right. Can't believe you're trying with your friend, right. It says, okay. You've been trying with your friend. 

Josie: Right, exactly. Okay, good. I've had, I had that thought as well, so I'm glad I'm not the only one so.

Morgane: I mean, I'm sharing this. It's probably not legal. I have not looked into it, so yeah. 

Josie (38:42): Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. Totally. Well, good. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I learned so much, I know my listeners are just gonna love this episode and learn so much, it's so valuable. Is there, how can folks find you and support you particularly your new venture with Woven Bodies? And all of that good info. 

Morgane (39:05): Thanks. Well, at first, I wanna say thank you so much for doing this for myself, for having me, but also for doing this podcast. You know, it's really giving people so much information, so many resources that aren't out there. So I've already heard chatters in the background. People go, have you heard, have you listened to this podcast? So thank you, thank you for this. 

Josie: Aw, yay, awesome. 

Morgane (39:28): And then in terms of Woven Bodies, so we are at wovenbodies.com and so you can reach out to us there. And like I said, we offer classes in person we're still kinda working out. What does this mean with the variant and whatnot.

But we're always online as well. And so you can reach us @wovenbodies and we are doing some little fundraisers here and there in order to, to make this space. You know what we all hope it, it will be or what rather what it will be. So those are, you know, those contributions can go on wovenbodies.com as well.

Josie (40:03): Okay, cool. Perfect. We'll put all that in the show notes. And then are you on Instagram or do you want people to find you on Instagram? 

Morgane: Yeah. Thank you. Oh my goodness. Social it's so funny cause I used to run social media and now I'm like what is Tinder? No, not tinder, Twitter? You know. 

Josie: Tinder, Twitter, I have no idea. 

Morgane: Tinder, Twitter. No, but we're, we're on Instagram. We're @wovenbodies on Instagram. We're also on Facebook and that's, if you were to Google er, Google. If you were to search Woven Bodies we're on Facebook there. 

Josie: Okay. Perfect. Awesome. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much, Morgan. 

Morgane: Thank you so much.

Josie (40:46): If you wanna learn more about how to give yourself the best chance of conceiving having a healthy pregnancy and baby or babies, head over to intersectionalfertility.com/fertile, and put your name on the waiting list to be notified when Fertile registration opens. Fertile is a queer, trans, and non-binary centered five week online program for people with wombs to reclaim power over their fertility journey and conceive using the Whole Self Fertility Method.

(41:19) Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz. 

If you like the show and wanna hear more tap subscribe on your podcast platform and please consider leaving us a review. It really truly helps. The Intersectional Fertility podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and produced by For the Love Media with original music by Jen Korte.

All content offered through The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is created for informational purposes only, it is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.