Episode 13 - Kayden Rose: “Joy Can Be a Contagion in a Beautiful Way.”

Kayden and Josie discuss joyful movement as social justice work, cultural competency for adoptive parents, health at every size (HAES), tarot, and more. Kayden also offers some nuanced questions and reflections for folks who are currently interested in transracial and transnational adoption.

[ID: Headshots of Josie (@intersectionalfertility) and Kayden Rose (@rootedintenderness) on a tan background. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 13.]

This conversation is truly jam-packed with relevant and embodied information for any person at any phase of their life, and will be especially helpful for folks growing their family through adoption.

Kayden is a Gender-fluid and queer Korean transracial adoptee, Tarot enthusiast, and student of the earth who loves to discuss all things liberation and joyful movement.

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rootedintenderness/
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/rootedintenderness
Calendly for meet-ups: https://calendly.com/knunziato
Tarot of the QTPOC: https://www.asaliearthwork.com/tarot-of-the-qtpoc/2017/7/1/blog

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.

Josie (00:00): I'm Josie Rodriguez Boucher. And this is the intersectional fertility podcast where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our whole selves.

(00:24) Today, I'm speaking with Kayden. Kayden is a health at every size and fat liberation aligned fitness instructor, health coach, and artist, located on unseated, Lenni Lenape land. They're a gender fluid and queer Korean transracial adoptee, tarot enthusiast, and student of the Earth who loves to discuss all things liberation and joyful movement.

Kayden holds a bachelor of science and applied psychology and global public health from New York University. 

(01:07) Welcome Kayden. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. 

Kayden (01:10): Thanks so much for having me. 

Josie (01:12): Will you share with us your pronouns and where in the world that you're located? 

Kayden (01:17): Sure. I am gender fluid. I mostly use they them pronouns, but I am comfortable with other pronouns, and I am located on Lenni Lenape territory, which is known as so called New Jersey.

Josie (01:32): And what led or inspired you to become, do you say, H A E S movement and health coach, or do you, is there like, do you say,

Kayden (01:39): A Way to pronounce it? Yeah. Yeah. 

Josie: And what does it mean? 

Kayden (01:43): Yes. So health at every size people say HAES, so we can say haes from now on. 

Yeah. What got me into being a health every size or haes health coach and group fitness instructor was really my lived experience with having an eating disorder and struggling with that for a good portion of my life.

And I think that discovering haes as a framework and also fat liberation as a framework really saved my life in a way that the traditional treatment models for eating disorder and like the recovery model for like eating disorder treatment did not. I think that I was "recovered" quote unquote for my eating disorder in a lot of ways, but I wasn't really fully embodying like the human experience of like what it means to enjoy food, love my body until I encountered health at every size. And until I encountered fat positivity and then fat liberation. 

Josie (02:55): Yes, I, and speaking from a fertility point of view, this is something I come across a lot too, is patients worried about their weight and how it's gonna affect their fertility?

And something I just spoke with on a recent episode with Gabby Rivera was that there's so much misinformation out there about weight and well, in general, and specifically with fertility, and I was saying that a lot of times what I come across in my practice is actually more issues when folks are too thin to get pregnant than, you know, too fat, for example. But there's so much Anti-fat bias in the medical community. 

Kayden (03:34): Yeah, 100%. So I went to college for public health and applied psychology, just from a public health perspective, right. Something like BMI is just such a faulty way of looking at somebody's health and making judgements on, on someone's health and a better, a more accurate way I should say, of measuring health outcomes is actually looking at, you know social indicators, such as like socioeconomic status and poverty and access to food, like whether or not you live in a food desert, right? 

(04:12) But. Those are the things that doctors are trained to look for and talk about with their patients. So I always find that very frustrating when people focus so much on weight and focus so much on these studies that aren't even that strong. 

Josie: Right, right. 

Kayden (04:30): Right, right. And I mean, I don't blame anyone for that, especially for people who aren't into research because you know, we aren't trained on how to read research like that and how to like critically analyze research as consumers. And I feel like that's very intentional, but that's a different tangent for another day. 

Josie: Yes.

Kayden (04:48): But yeah, I definitely just like, think that we need to just move away from talking about like weight and fat and all of these things, because it's just like, not even accurate.

Josie: Yeah. 

Kayden (05:02): But it's not just like that it's that it hurts other people, but it actually just is scientifically an inaccurate way of measuring health. 

Josie (05:10): Right, right. It's just plain wrong. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I loved what you said about how there's a difference between being recovered from having an eating disorder and embracing. You know, fat liberation and health at every size. I mean, those are two different things entirely. 

Kayden: Yeah. Yeah. 1000% or maybe an even more accurate way of putting it for myself at least is I was surviving, but I wasn't recovered. 

Josie (05:38): Yep. Surviving and thriving are very different. Let's see, I'm also so curious that how has being a transracial and transnational Korean adoptee impacted and informed your life and mission or work in the world or has it? 

Kayden (05:54): That is such a good question. I think about this all the time. So that is a, yeah. 

Josie: Do you? 

Kayden (06:01): Yeah. Being a transracial adoptee. So let me explain what that means. I think that in most cases, transracial, adoptees are BIPOC children who are adopted by white families. However, that's not necessarily always the case. It's just like transracial, adoptee, sorry. 

Transracial adoption is when a child of a different race is adopted into a family of another race. And so you could hypothetically have a black parent that adopts an Asian baby and that's transracial adoption as well. That's just not as common for various reasons. So my experience is that I am a Korean transracial adoptee who was adopted by a white family. 

And I think that being an adoptee has really shaped how I look at the world in a truly radical way, because I'm constantly navigating different worlds. I feel like I'm always walking with one foot in my white family's world and like the other foot in, in the world that I live as a racialized person. 

Josie (07:19): Totally. 

Kayden: And I, you know, I carry a lot of privilege in many ways. And so I just want to name that. That being a transracial adoptee, especially as like a Black transracial adoptee, I cannot speak to that experience. 

Josie: Right. 

Kayden (07:36): So I just wanna be able to name that I'm speaking to my experience as like a light skinned Asian person. But still like the racialization is so present.

It's just always there. And the code switching is happening all the time. And I think that that has really informed my work because I'm so used to having to weave in and out of all these different worlds and shape myself based on who I'm surrounding myself with. And I think that growing up that has like, created a lot of identity crisis.

Josie: Interesting. 

Kayden (08:10): And a lot of, yeah, a lot of internal conflict about who I am, and who I really am, you know? But at this point in my life, I kind of feel like I have a superpower in the sense that I I've lived in many different spaces. And I've seen how a lot of people see the world and it encourages me to have a more open mind and try to see things from multiple perspectives.

And I've really tried to take that skill with me wherever I go in approaching my work and. I think it served me well. I also think that sometimes I need to learn how to not compromise myself because it becomes easy to do so when you're constantly thinking about what other people are thinking and feeling in a given situation. 

Josie (09:00): Ah, that's such a good point. Yes, with natural empathy, I think comes a really strong need for boundaries 

Kayden: 1000%. And I think that I wasn't even able to exercise those kinds of boundaries until I became an adult, you know. 

Josie: Yeah, for sure. For sure, same. 

Kayden (09:23): Yeah, and I, I think that oftentimes transracial adoptees are very used to their boundaries being disrespected in a way that feels so significant because so often our parents are white, and it just creates a new layer that is not even necessarily intentional. 

Josie: Right. 

Kayden (09:41): I think that a lot of adoptive parents truly love their children of course, but you just can't erase race from the power dynamic and the power exchange between like that parent, that white parent and that BIPOC child.

Josie (09:57): Absolutely. That's so true. A couple thoughts are coming to mind. I'm wondering how the layer of queerness played into this kind of, you know, struggling a bit to really find out who you really are. Like to me, that feels like a lot of folks' stories about their queerness. So to have both on top of each other, I wonder if that's more complex. I mean, it's gotta be. 

Kayden (10:22): I am a hard of hearing, queer, gender fluid person. And I think that I'm just very used to being the black sheep of my family. 

Josie: Sure. 

Kayden (10:37): And I think one thing influences the other thing, you know, I don't think that they can exist separately. They all just like come together and allow me to just grow and, and transform in ways that I don't think I would've been able to had I not had that other identity, right? I definitely think that my gender identity, which is something that is much newer. I only came out as gender fluid a year ago. And I think that though, like coming out as queer, when I came out as queer, I was 12.

Josie: Oh wow. 

Kayden: I was, yeah, I was a baby. 

Josie: That's awesome. I love that. 

Kayden (11:20): Yeah. And I think that, because I had that experience of coming out, I'm so used to being seen as different. It just allowed me to have a little bit more of a perspective into like what past or what decisions I can make moving forward and what that probably will look like. And, and all of those kinds of things. 

Josie: Right. So you had practice? 

Kayden: Yeah. I had practice. 

Josie: Yeah, that makes sense. 

Kayden: I'm on the varsity team now. 

Josie (11:52): Yeah, exactly. You're professional level at this now. And then the other thought that came to me was, do you, have you been able to have any connection with your Korean ancestry or did your family encourage that or was it part of your experience at all? 

Kayden (12:10): Yeah, that is a great question. I grew up in a relatively diverse neighborhood. This is all going to come full circle, I promise. And, I think that even though I did not want to be white as a child, I also didn't wanna be different. And being different, it just felt like I would lose my family and my community in a way that I don't think I was able to articulate as a child, but looking back, I think that that was the source of the discomfort.

And so I never pursued any kind of research or like integration into my Korean ancestry or my identity or my culture until I was much older. And it's interesting because my mother did encourage me to try to access different resources and maybe check out a Korean church that was in the area.

And I just wanted no part of it. 

Josie: Oh, interesting. 

Kayden (13:21): And I think it's partially because of my status as like a disabled person. I was so used to people looking at me in a weird way and just looking at me as different. And I didn't want another thing added to the list of reasons why I was quote unquote "different."

Josie: Sure. 

Kayden (13:39): So it wasn't until probably when I moved to New York for college, a couple of years into that, that I've always started thinking more about my Korean ancestry and this past year with the pandemic, which has been truly horrific for everyone. The one thing that has been keeping me afloat is just learning more about my ancestral heritage and it's been a really beautiful journey.

So I love that question because I am leaning more into like learning Korean as a language and learning about spiritual practices and all these different things. Eating Korean foods and making Korean foods think, yeah, it, it definitely feels like a homecoming in a lot of ways. Yeah. 

Josie (14:27): Oh my gosh. That is so cool. I can really relate to that because I was raised by my mom, who's white, and I didn't have any relationship with my dad and very kind of, you know, a relationship with his side of the family that wasn't very present as I was growing up. But that's my Mexican heritage is from that side.

And so I feel similarly, I can really relate to that. And just recently within the last, you know, year or so, I mean, I've kind of come in and out of wanting to connect with that Mexican heritage and have some, I've had some really cool experiences, you know, throughout my life. But more recently I've been really like intentional about it, about really, you know, trying to learn those healing practices and yeah. Spiritual practices and that are in my bloodline. So yeah, I love that. 

Kayden (15:19): Yeah, 1000%. And I think part of it is that I don't want to, if I choose to biologically have children, I want those children to be able to access the things that I cut myself off from as a child and for it to be normal and not something that's just like, oh no, I don't wanna be the weirdo of my class.

Like I just want it to be so normal and embraced. And I think I'm trying to heal that part of myself so that when I do decide to have a family, that's something I'm able to provide to my children. 

Josie (15:53): Yes. Yes. I love that. I love that. It's yeah. I see that as such a healing. And yeah, so I'm curious too, cuz a lot of my listeners and a lot of the folks that I work with are trying to make a family, but some of them choose to, in addition to maybe having biological children or instead of to adopt. So I wonder, and you know, for those folks, especially who are considering transracial adoption or transnational adoption, if you have any advice for folks who might be thinking about going down that road. 

Kayden (16:25): That is such an incredibly, that is such a good question. And it's so complex, right? 

Josie: Yeah. 

Kayden (16:31): I don't, I think that I could take up this entire podcast answering that one question. I think the first thing to ask yourself specifically, if you want to transracial or transnationally adopt is why?

I think that is a great starting point to just sit with that question and yeah, really do some self interrogation. Why is it that I want to adopt a child of a different race? Is it logistical? Is it about money? Is it white saviorism? I mean, this is really uncomfortable, right? These, these questions can bring up a lot of feelings, but I think it's really important for us to be honest with ourselves about where we're coming from. 

And be very compassionate too about, you know, what the, what responses are coming up, but be honest. Because, I think I really would've loved for my parents to just have sat with themselves and asked those questions before choosing to adopt me and I love my parents right. And I think that transracial adoption can be so painful and damaging, especially in a society in which like white supremacy is the norm.

Josie: Yeah. Right, right.

Kayden (17:54): You just can't escape that. So especially if you are a white parent looking to adopt a non-white child. I think these are very important. It's really important to start asking yourself and your partner or partners those kinds of questions. So that's like the first thing I would say I personally would love to see a world in which transracial adoption is not that common, just because I think that the adoption system is a system of family separation. 

Josie: Oh, wow, yeah. 

Kayden (18:32): There's for example, if I even look domestically, right. There are states that will give grants to parents to adopt Black babies. Instead of giving that money to families, to like the birth families who could actually use that money in order to support the child better.

Because so many families who put up their children for adoption are doing so due to poverty and oppression and all of these other terrible things. And so. I'm not going to blame anyone, any parent who's looking to adopt. Cause that's not what the issue is. The issue is much more at a structural level.

(19:15) But it's important to keep all of these uncomfortable truths in mind. I think, as you move forward. With that being said, you know, I'm not going to tell anyone not to adopt. I think that like there's many people who want children and don't like have a choice about that. Like about whether or not like the, like, maybe you're not able to have children physically that you don't want to, like, that's totally fine.

If you do adopt a child of a different race, I think it's really important to plan and be culturally competent. And so what does that look like? Right. I think there's a lot of parents who thought that putting up for example, if you adopt an Asian baby putting up like Asian artwork in the bedroom was enough. 

Josie: Uh-huh.

Kayden: That's not enough. That's not cultural competency.

Josie: Uh-huh. Right. 

Kayden (19:59): Or like going to that one Japanese-American restaurant in the area is like enough. That's definitely not enough. So when I say cultural competency, I mean, we are only doing research into, you know, where your baby is coming from and the rich cultural heritage that they have inherited simply by existing.

Right. I think it's really important for adoptive parents to not only recognize the the ancestral teachings that like your child is inheriting, but also like really honoring it and embracing it and making that part of your child's life. And if that means that you have to move to a different neighborhood, then you might have to move to a different neighborhood.

I think a lot of white parents especially want to move their children to neighborhoods in quote unquote like "high performance school districts." I think if you're going to adopt a BIPOC baby, you need to throw all of those assumptions out the window and really look for a school that is representative of what your child looks like and not focus so much on the quote unquote "performance" of that school. So. 

Josie (21:12): Right, right. Wow. That's so interesting. And I love that term cultural competency. 

Kayden: Mm-hmm, yeah. 

Josie (21:20): That's such a good one. Yeah, wow. Ugh. Thank you. This is such good advice for folks to think about and so important. And I love what you said about I just had never thought about this and you're so right. That it's like, why wouldn't the money go to the families that are needing to put their kids up for adoption to support them and raise them better?

Like, duh, that makes so much sense. 

Kayden (21:42): Yeah, but instead states are funding, mostly white families to adopt Black babies because they are quote unquote not. I hate saying this, not as "in demand." 

Josie: Ugh wow. 

Kayden: It's, it disgusts me. 

Josie: It is disgusting, yeah. 

Kayden (22:00): But if you look at, I mean, I hate talking about people in terms of money, but if you look at how much it costs to adopt a white baby versus a Black baby, white children are more expensive right.

If you adopt internationally, like internationally adopted children are more expensive. You get to pay, you pay more money. If you want your child to be shipped to you, essentially. If you want somebody to board a plane with your baby and you don't have to ever go to that country, you just have them come to United States and you pick them up, you can pay extra money and have them do that.

I mean, it's very transactional and that's so uncomfortable. but like, I think it's so important to talk about that and think about why that is as well. 

Josie (22:43): Totally. Oh my gosh, this is so important. And yeah, it's just the whole structure of it is so deeply problematic. It's just all of it. Ugh. Gosh. Well, thank you to, for speaking to that.

Cause I think that's so important for us to keep talking about everybody. 

Kayden (23:02): Yeah. And I mean, I will say I would love to adopt a child especially as a queer person and as somebody who's just had life experiences, I don't know if I'm going to physically conceive a child and, and so. I think that things are really complicated and nuanced.

But it's really important either way to just be informed and to make informed decisions to the best of your ability. 

Josie (23:30): Exactly. I totally agree. And I think that's across everything. Like when you're buying your clothes, when you're buying your food, like. We have that ability to sit with those complexities and those nuances, right. At like every turn, basically every decision we're making. Cool, let's see.

(23:47) Something else I wanted to talk with you about. So in Chinese medicine, I bring this up a lot in my podcast episodes and, and what I teach is that our fertility is actually referred to as our essence. So the more we're able to get in touch with who we really are, or our essence, the more access we have to our fertile potential and our creative power.

So this is what I teach in my Whole Self Fertility Method. And it just embodies this idea of bringing our whole selves to the fertility journey and not just compartmentalized pieces of ourselves. So I like to ask folks, even if you're not trying to conceive, just if you do have any sort of personal practices or rituals in place that allow you to connect with this essence or your whole self especially as a queer person of color, I feel like it's extra important for us to do those types of practices. 

Kayden: Dancing. Always dancing. 

Josie: Ah, yes. 

Kayden (24:41): I think movement for me is very much so both medicine and prayer. I feel like I'm tapping into, like some kind of, it almost feels like I'm leaning into some kind of divinity, you know, when I'm dancing. Obviously there's some times when I'm just dancing, I'm having a good time.

But I think that even that, I just feel so much closer to myself. And closer to my ancestors. I was trained as a dancer my whole life and, but the dancing I'm talking about isn't necessarily, you know, professional dancing. It's just moving my body. I just feel so much better all the time when I'm moving my body, I feel so much more tapped into whatever is around me when I am just allowing myself to move through stuff and to process stuff through movement. So that, that was the first thing that came to me. 

Josie (25:41): Yes. I love that. I think that, and I've seen you some dances that you've posted on Instagram. You're a beautiful dancer and I get that feeling immediately when I watch you dance. It's like, yeah. That's that looks like a sacred practice. Yeah, that's beautiful.

I really want to, I was also I did a lot of dancing growing up and that's something that I struggle with is embodying, you know, being in my body in general is something I struggle with. But I do feel like dance has the ability to be so healing in that way and kind of brings us into our body and helps us process trauma, helps us process emotions, helps us, you know, process.

So I love that answer. I think that's wonderful. 

Kayden (26:22): And I think when dancing or movement feels disembodying or painful in a, like not in a transformative way, like just painful in an I need this to stop kind of way. I can't help it feel like that is because of external factors. Right. I think that being trained as a dancer was really beautiful because I got to tap into this practice in such an intentional way.

And I think that that really traumatized me and made me feel like I have to look a certain way in order to be dancing or If I don't, if my body doesn't look a certain way, then, like I don't count as the dancer. 

Josie: Right. 

Kayden (27:06): There's all these judgements and ways of like removing the self, removing spirit from dance that is so damaging and just starting to practice movement in some shape or form by yourself.

I feel like that's such a great way to just start to shed all of that. Socialized and like learned behaviors and judgements around what it means to actually dance because dance originally has always been a spiritual practice, you know? It doesn't have to be about looking a certain way. It should definitely just be more about feeling.

And if that just means like doing a neck stretch, great. 

Josie (27:46): Right. I love that. Yes. I did ballet growing up. So talk about one of the most strict, you know colonized forms of dance you can learn. It was, you know, I remember at one point I had a Russian ballet teacher who used to smack us with a ruler.

If our certain, you know, body parts weren't in the right line. I mean, it was, and I was young. Like, I can't believe that they would, you know, they were getting away with that. 

Kayden (28:17): Yeah. I mean, I also grew up doing ballet and I love ballet and you did too. I, I see how I've internalized a lot of messages through those institutions of dance that are really harmful in my everyday life.

Like pushing yourself past your limit. I think a lot of dancers do that because that's just rewarded behavior. And I catch myself doing that all the time in my everyday life. Just pushing myself past what my limits actually are, because I think that that's how I'm supposed to be functioning, but it's not.

Josie (28:51): Yes. Yeah. It's not okay. We have to unlearn all that. Yes. I love that. That answer about dance. And then a while ago you posted on Instagram, I think it was Instagram takeover on someone else's account. You posted that you were gonna talk about cultivating a practice of joyful movement that can aid us in dreaming and creating our collective liberation.

And I was like, I need to know all about that. That's incredible. Can you speak about that? 

Kayden (29:20): Sometimes, I read things that I wrote and wondered if that's the same, if that's me, you know? I was like, wow, that's so smart. Oh, I said that?

Josie: I love it. 

Kayden (29:35): Yeah. So when I was talking about cultivating a practice of joyful movement, I just feel so much of social justice work and so much of activism and just building a future, a liberated future and dreaming of these liberated futures and leaning into the collective. You can't do that without tapping into yourself and really living in your body.

And I feel like so many of us are so removed from our bodies for a good reason. Right. I am oftentimes so out of my body because of transphobia and because of you know, like oppression of disabled people. It makes sense why we don't wanna be in our bodies, this world is very hard to exist in.

And I think that by cultivating at least like a moment in our lives where we're able to cultivate this practice of intentional movement of joyful movement, we're able to like claim space for ourselves. And I think it's really important to do that in order to really think about what liberation means for us. How are we supposed to dream of liberation and work towards this vision?

If we, if we are just so disconnected and disembodied and checked out all the time, I just don't think it's possible. 

Josie (31:01): Totally. Yeah. I agree. I agree with you. I think that you have to feel what liberation feels like in your body in order to yeah, in order to move forward towards it. 

Kayden: Right. And I think that joyful movement if I were to use an analogy is like practicing, driving in a parking lot. And. You're not going to want to drive for the first time on a highway, you know? 

Josie: Right. 

Kayden (31:34): Like that's actually unsafe and dangerous. you're going to want to maybe go to a parking lot, go somewhere open and just practice by yourself in this small space that you've created for yourself. And I think that in that sense, joyful movement is like the way that we get to practice what it means to fully embody our true selves all the time, you know? But we just have this moment where we can just set aside everything else and be like, okay, this is for me.

I am safe here. I can be myself here and I can really start to. Slowly, but surely practice what it feels like to, to notice sensations in my body. To notice what happiness physically feels like in my body, or what anxiety feels like in my body, in a way that feels safe. And so then eventually, right over time, we can start to expand a little bit more and let that practice and form the decisions that we make in our everyday lives.

Josie (32:44): Right. I love that. And what, so how do you actually do it? Do you use music? Is music a part of it or do you just, or does it depend. Do you set like time aside for it in your day? I would love to know like the specifics. 

Kayden: Yeah. I think the great thing about joyful movement is that it's going to look different on everybody, you know?

And so for me, I think dancing is definitely my go to, however, as a group fitness instructor, I try to cultivate that in my class. And so if you can find a class that feels safe to you, because I know there's a lot of really messed up fitness instructors in this role that say very problematic things. But if you're able to find those people who are able to hold space for you in a way that makes you feel safe, 100%, that is where you can practice your joyful movement.

If you just wanna be in your room and just start stretching in the morning, just like a neck stretch or like shoulder stretch, whatever that that can be your joyful movement practice. It doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to look a certain way. It doesn't have to be like super Physically engaging.

I think the most important thing is being in your body. And so if you find yourself, just forcing yourself to do movement out of obligation, I would say that that's not really joyful movement. That's just exercise. But I think that exercise can be joyful movement. I love going to the gym personally, right?

And so I can have a joyful movement experience lifting weights, but if somebody else is going to the gym because of They want to look a certain way and they don't feel good about themselves and like all of these things. Right. Which aren't necessarily bad things to feel. I wouldn't call that joyful movement. I would just call that exercise. 

Josie (34:36): Right, right. Yeah. That's how I feel about exercise is not joyful about it. So that is something that I am always looking for. Okay. I feel inspired to start. Dancing to music by myself in my office, I think that I could start doing that. 

Kayden: I love that. Yeah, that's incredible.

Josie: Okay. I'm gonna do it because I've been wanting to do that. And it just feels like, I don't know. I feel like I needed permission almost to start doing that. You know, like someone to say, this is something you should try and it's actually good for you. 

Kayden (35:13): you know, that's very interesting that you said that. I used to live in New York. And I've been living in New York for the past six years. I only moved back to New Jersey to live with my parents during the pandemic. And while I was in New York, I would do street performances. And at the parks in the subway stations, I'd just dance because I loved it. 

Josie: Oh, cool. Oh, I love that. 

Kayden (35:38): Yeah. And it was so interesting seeing how people interacted with me in that space.

I just, the reason why I loved doing it was because I started connecting with people and connecting with strangers in a way that was really beautiful. And I'm not talking just about strangers who came up and were like, that was great, but like strangers who were like, I'm gonna start dancing, who clearly didn't have any kind of classical training or whatever, but they just felt so inspired by me joyfully moving that they wanted to tap into that and join me. And there was just something so magical about that. And I just loved that. I was able to give someone permission in that moment. 

Josie (36:19): Yes. That's what that was. That's incredible. Yeah. I feel like that's such a gift for people. When I see, I feel instantly inspired when I feel someone feeling joyful in their body. And you can tell that they feel joyful in their body. It's like infectious. 

Kayden: It is, it is infectious. Yeah and I would just, I feel like you know, we it's infectious in such a beautiful way. I would love for people to just be able to access that for themselves because they're going to be able to impact the people around them, you know? I think joy can be a contagion in a very beautiful way. 

Josie: Yes. I agree. 

Kayden (36:57): Yeah and just like seeing other people being embodied in that way. I think that that's really important in our vision for a liberated future. 

Josie: Absolutely. 

Kayden: Because we can't be checked out. We can't be checked out for liberation.

Josie (37:12): Yes, that's so true, and from a fertility perspective as well, I mean, imagine what kind of environment that would feel like as a embryo or as a fetus or as you know, a baby developing, like imagine being inside of a body that ha, that felt that embodied joy, you know, more often than not, like, imagine the difference of that human, you know, being born with that sort of foundation.

I mean, that's incredible to, for me to think about. 

Kayden (37:44): I absolutely love that. And it's like, not just that, right. It's also being compassionate with yourself when you're not feeling joyful and just allowing for that instead of having all of these judgements about how you're supposed to be feeling, because I think when we tap into what we're supposed to be feeling and how we're supposed to present ourselves, it becomes really hard to even notice those joyful moments because we're so focused on like performing in a certain way.

Josie: Yes. Yeah, I completely agree with that. Thank you for making that point because yeah, I don't think the goal is to be joyful all the time. 

Kayden: No, 1000% no. 

Josie (38:22): And not only is it not the goal that that's impossible. But yeah, but the, yeah, I think the goal is to feel embodied and feel compassion towards any feeling that comes up because yeah. That's, I mean, that's what would be, so I think transformational for humans is to start in that kind of, that kind of atmosphere of compassion for, for all feelings. I mean, really just an embodiment in general, I think is what we're after. Yeah, that's cool. 

Okay, another thing I wanted to talk to you about was tarot reading. I love that you do tarot readings. I saw on Instagram that you do like tarot readings in your stories, and some, one of the times that you posted that you said that, about leaning into our ancestral practices that, you know, some, we live in such a globalized society that at times we are going to engage in other cultures practices.

So it's so important to uplift and respect and credit in those who carry that ancestral wisdom. And I can really relate to that as a non-Asian acupuncturist. You know, I'm engaging in this medicine, that's not mine. And so. When you said that on your stories, I was like, oh yes, that, that really resonates.

(39:39) So I'd love for you to talk about like how you came to tarot readings and what kind of, what role that plays in your life. I just love tarot and I use Oracle cards myself. 

Kayden (39:49): I absolutely love that. The first time that I engaged with tarot readings was probably my freshman year of college on the floor of my floor mates dorm. We were, he just pulled out his Rider Waite deck and said that he had just bought a deck and had like a very, very general idea of the meanings. And we just started playing with the cards, and it just felt so meditative to me, but engaging and I just wanted more of it. But I didn't, I didn't do anything about that until a couple of years later when I bought my first deck.

And it just kind of laid in my closet. I brought it out every now and then, but I wasn't really getting into it until last year. And I decided to send out these holiday cards to people, especially to queer and trans and gender nonconforming people who might be feeling more alone during the holidays, you know?

(41:02) And so I was taking requests from friends and followers on who would like to get a card from me. And I was deciding what I wanted to write. And I decided to just do some mini tarot meetings and that's how it all started. I just became so inspired and I just wanted more. So I was learning more and more about the, tarot and it kind of landed me where I'm at now.

I think that, I mean, tarot has. It's such an interesting thing to talk about in terms of like, looking at history and race and like xenophobia and all of these things, because like tarot is a European thing. 

Josie: Right. 

Kayden (41:42): But then it became something that was associated with Roma people. 

Josie: With what people? 

Kayden: Roma people, like Romani people.

Josie: Okay, interesting. I didn't know this, the history. 

Kayden (41:53): Yeah. So it's not actually something that like the Roma people created themselves, but it's something that Europeans then said that like the Roma people have created. And so because of discrimination against Romani people, a lot of folks in that community practiced tarot and other forms of like like crystal ball readings and stuff like that.

Because it was the only way that they were able to make money. Yeah. And so I often, I like to talk about this just because I see so much appropriation and like really yucky stuff happening on the internet. So I think it's important to kind of name where these practices come from and, and look at the historical significance and understand when we're touching a tarot deck, you know, like what is this like historical artifact that we're tapping into? Like, what is the history that we're tapping into? Just holds some awareness for that. 

But also it makes me think about my own ancestral practices and like what Korean ancestral practices look like. And so I've been learning more about like shamanism and all of these different things. And that's been, that's been really amazing, but tarot has been so transformative for me personally. I do it every. I wanna say I do it multiple times a week. Not every day. I would love to it every day. I'm not, I'm not gonna lie. I'm not. 

Josie (43:14): I appreciate your honesty. That's so great. Yeah. Do you have a deck that you, or several decks that you recommend? I love learning about new decks, especially ones that are, cuz I find the ones that are more popular are more I don't know, white and heteronormative and you know, I'm like I'm always looking for more diverse decks, or more inclusive decks.

Kayden: A lot of gender binary is happening. 

Josie: Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yeah. 

Kayden: I think purchasing tarot decks is my guilty pleasure. I don't want to disclose how many I have.

Josie: Oh cool. I love it.

Kayden (43:59): I will say there are some really cool artists, some very cool indie artists out there who are putting out to decks that are way more inclusive than the traditional ones. Off the top, actually, I don't wanna name anyone right now, but I can definitely send you links. I don't wanna forget anyone.

Josie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you, if you wanna send me some links, I'll put 'em in the show notes. 

Kayden: Yeah. There's actually a website. Yeah. That list a bunch of Tarot decks that are created by QTBIPOC. I think it's called like tarot of the QTPOC. So I can send you that link and there's like a whole list.

Josie: Okay, cool. Yeah, let's do that. Send me some links and I'll add 'em to the show notes. 

Kayden: I love indie artists for creating like really radical decks. And every time I see one, I just wanna buy it.

Josie (44:49): Yes. I bet. I feel that way too. My most recent deck that I bought was created by a trans person and it's lovely. I just, I feel so inspired whenever I use it. It just feels so good. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Cool. 

Well, Kayden, where can folks find you and support you and sign up for your offerings or anything? All the things. 

Kayden: Sure. So I am on Instagram at @rootedintenderness, and that is usually where, the easiest way to contact me. I have a Calendly where you can sign up to just meet with me.

We can chat. And that's also on my Linktree, which is on my Instagram page. 

Josie (45:38): Perfect. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here today, Kayden, I just love your energy and I think that you're doing beautiful work in the world, and I really appreciate you taking the time and energy to speak with me today.

Kayden: Thank you so much for having me, I really appreciate it.

Josie (46:00): If you want to learn more about how to give yourself the best chance of conceiving having a healthy pregnancy and baby or babies. Head over to intersectionalfertility.com/fertile and put your name on the waiting list to be notified when Fertile registration opens. Fertile is a queer, trans, and non-binary centered five week online program for people with wombs to reclaim power over their fertility journey and conceive using the Whole Self Fertility Method.

Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz. If you like the show and wanna hear more, tap subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and please consider leaving us a review. 

It really truly helps. The Intersectional Fertility podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez-Boucher, and produced by For the Love Media with original music by Jen Korte.

All content offered through The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is created for informational purposes only, it is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.