Episode 51 - Pãnquetzani: Womb Healing is Ancestral Healing

Pãnquetzani (she/her) is a Mexican and Mesoamerican traditional healer who shares how she carries on the healing knowledge and traditions of her ancestors. Today's episode will explore how womb health impacts internal organs, why womb healing is especially important when you have had a hysterectomy, and how fertility is connected to our resources and money.

[ID: A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 51: Pãnquetzani @indigemama and Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier @intersectionalfertility.]

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Hysterectomy Education Resources and Services Foundation (HERS)

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.

[00:00:00] Josie: I am Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our whole selves.

[00:00:32] Hi, friend. I wanted to let you know that registration is open for my five week online program called Fertile. Fertile is a queer, trans, and non-binary centered online program for folks with wombs to reclaim power over their fertility journey and conceive using my Whole Self Fertility Method. Healthcare practitioners and community workers, you are welcome to join us and become certified in the Whole Self Fertility Method.

[00:01:01] We start on April 17th. Our first live session starts April 19th, and we'll have five weeks of meeting once a week live. But if you register now or at any point when registration is open, you get access to all the content as soon as you register. So you can go ahead and get started now or whenever you register, so that by the time our live sessions come, you can really use those to your advantage and get all your questions answered and get what you need out of those sessions.

[00:01:32] There's also a sliding scale for everyone to use in order to join whether or not you are someone who's trying to conceive or if you're a healthcare practitioner, so you can still use that sliding scale, and scholarships are available for Black, Indigenous, and People of the Global Majority. So all of that information is on my website, intersectionalfertility.com/fertile.

[00:01:58] And also something that I haven't really said anywhere, and I should put this on the website, but partners can join for free. So if you have one or multiple partners that are in this fertility journey with you, they're welcome to join us in Fertile and in our private community as well, and they can join for free.

[00:02:18] If you have any questions, email me, josie@intersectionalfertility.com. We already have such a sweet group that's forming, I love watching you know, who is attracted to this program and who signs up. This is a really great group so far. So I hope you can join us and I hope you enjoy today's episode. It's, wow, it's such a good one.

[00:02:41] Pānquetzani is a traditional healer who helps BIPOC achieve sovereignty in their lives using el poder de ancestral healing online and in real life. She was born into a matriarchal family of healers from the Valley of Mexico, La Comarca Lagunera, and Zacatecas. She'll never forget the stories of her abuelas telling her of her tatarabuelas, being well-respected and deeply loved community doctoras, who healed others, using their hands, herbs, ritual, and traditional foods.

[00:03:24] Through the stories of her grandmothers and through receiving their potent medicina firsthand, she found herself in an informal apprenticeship learning skills that would serve her entire life and the lives of thousands. 

[00:03:37] Welcome to the Intersectional Fertility Podcast. 

[00:03:42] Pãnquetzani: Thank you. 

[00:03:43] Josie: Yeah, what an incredible bio. Will you share with us your pronouns and where you're joining us from today?

[00:03:50] Pãnquetzani: Yeah, I'm Pānquetzani, she/her, and I'm joining you from Southern California Long Beach, Tongva Land. 

[00:03:59] Josie: Nice, and I would love to know, one of the lenses that I look at fertility through is Chinese medicine, for example. What are the lenses, or one of the lenses that informs your relationship to fertility?

[00:04:14] Pãnquetzani: I specialize in Mexican traditional medicine and Mesoamerican medicine. Mexican traditional medicine is the type of folk healing that our abuelas, mis abuelas, tías you see them practicing this. It's things like never go outside with your hair wet. Don't step on the floor barefoot. But it's also really traditional nourishing cooking.

[00:04:42] And the knowledge of how to use herbs throughout your life and menstrual cycle. In Mesoamerican medicine, this is the base of Mexican traditional medicine. So Mexican traditional medicine is post-colonial and it's ongoing. It's what we practice today. It's very popular in our communities.

[00:05:08] And with Mesoamerican medicine, this is the ancient medicine that we draw from. This is incantations to gods and goddesses, for lack of a better word, really, the Earth, the elements. It is, it's seeing your body as a microcosm of the universe. It's understanding your place and the way you work within the world. And it's embracing our ancestral healing.

[00:05:44] It's embracing the Indigenous herbs, calling them by their Indigenous names and using them for their original purposes. 

[00:05:53] Josie: I love that, thank you for that distinction. I haven't heard it described that way of that post-colonial, pre-colonial distinction. 

[00:06:01] Pãnquetzani: Yeah, I learned Mexican traditional medicine through my grandmother. And she's very Catholic. And so some of the rituals that she does is, you know, you'll say Catholic prayers to Jesus, to la Virgen de Guadelupe, to the apostles, to the saints. And I reject Catholicism. And I did that at a young age. I was 12 years old when I broke away from the family mindset of Catholicism and Christianity.

[00:06:37] And this is how I stepped into, through family members, going to ceremonies with them, going to rituals with them, and then also apprenticing with elders who knew prayers in the Nahuatl language. So that I could replace these Catholic prayers that my abuela taught me during limpias, during salvadas, during energy work. I replaced them with Indigenous theology. 

[00:07:08] Josie: Beautiful. Yeah. I love that approach. I read that you said somewhere when your womb centered, ancestral healing is inevitable and that really stopped me in my tracks when I read that, I was like, that's so cool. Will you talk about that and what does that mean?

[00:07:26] Pãnquetzani: Yeah. Being womb centered means tapping into your core, tapping into your womb. It means listening to your body. It means paying attention to your menstrual cycle. It means knowing that if your womb is exactly where your womb belongs in your body, that your body, your reproductive health, will function the way it's meant to.

[00:07:54] It means that when we slow down and when we give ourselves the care and the attention that we deserve, that is ancestral healing for Black and Indigenous People of Color. We have been systematically removed from our body autonomy. We've been systematically removed from our sovereignty. 

[00:08:20] And so when we step into body sovereignty, when we reclaim our womb, this heals all of the ancestors who were forced into marriage, who were raped, who were used as maids and babysitters, and to nurse rich white people's babies in ranches.

[00:08:43] The people who were really most indoctrinated and were in survival mode for not only their whole lives, but for generations because they were surviving colonialism. And now, even though we're still under colonial rule, our lives and our bodies are still being occupied. These radical acts of coming home to ourselves is paying homage to our earth and our ancestors.

[00:09:17] Josie: That's so beautiful. Yeah, that makes sense. So it's like tending to your womb or womb space, having that self-care and place, it really goes almost both directions. Like it goes backwards to ancestral healing, and then it also goes forwards to like future generations. Would you say that?

[00:09:39] Pãnquetzani: It goes all directions, it's expansive. The uterus is a creative organ and a creative energy. Even if you don't have a womb, you have a womb space. You have creative energy that just wants to create something sustainable for you. It wants to protect you. It wants to move you. It's an animistic force in your body.

[00:10:13] And so when we are able to get out of survival mode and step into thriving via the womb, then this allows for, instead of working hard, luchando, struggling getting things done despite all of the hardship, instead of that energy that our mothers and grandmothers may have had, we are creating effortlessly.

[00:10:42] I like to think of the body and the womb as an ecosystem. The earth doesn't try hard, right. It rains and it sprouts. And so when we give our body what our body needs when we feed our womb, fuel the womb, then the womb will, in turn, Give us her gifts. 

[00:11:06] Josie: Oh, I love that so much. That effortless part of it, because it's like, yeah, to not force, you know, and to have that, if we're microcosms of the earth and of the universe, if we treat ourselves that way, then it's, yeah.

[00:11:20] That effortless creation. I think that's getting in touch with that energy, I think can be so useful for folks on their conception journey. 

[00:11:30] Pãnquetzani: And it really reinforces the idea that my body's not against me. My body is an ecosystem, and what have I been putting, what have I been contributing to this ecosystem? How have I been tending to this ecosystem and where have I been lacking? Where have I been neglecting? Where have I been polluting? 

[00:11:55] Whether it's conscious, unconscious on purpose or not. We are the owners of our body, we're the directors. We run the show. So if there is something in the ecosystem that is off, then it's our jobs, it's our role to figure out how can I make this work? 

[00:12:18] How can I, how can I nurture myself? How can I put nutrients into my body? What is my womb telling me? One of the things that I have all of my students do is to tap into the voice of your womb. The number one thing that folks will tell me is that they can't hear what their womb is saying. And it actually takes practice to connect with your womb.

[00:12:49] I can't feel my womb, I can't hear my womb, like there's zero connection. And this womb, this uterus is working for you, despite contrary belief where it's only working when you're bleeding. Your womb is working for you every single day. As you breathe, your womb is expanding and contracting.

[00:13:11] When you orgasm, the womb is moving and you know, even standing up, the fundus is standing up, becoming erect. As you go through your menstrual cycle, the womb is expanding, growing, and coming back down. The womb is constantly holding up the intestines. The uterus is always separating the bladder from the bowels so that you have healthy bowel movements and a regular, you know, peeing situation.

[00:13:44] You're not peeing all the time, you're not withholding urine. Which is something a lot of people experience, especially post baby. And all of this is related to womb health. In mesoamerican medicine and Mexican traditional medicine, we have this idea of the Matriz Caida, the dropped womb.

[00:14:07] And a dropped womb is when your womb is, so let me tell you where your womb should be. Your womb should be two fingers below the belly button, and two to three fingers above the pubic bone midline. If your womb is anywhere but there, then you have a dropped womb. It could be facing forward, it could be back, it could be sideways, it could be down below, dropped lower than it's supposed to.

[00:14:36] All of that is a matriz caida. And when you have a matriz caida, it impacts all of your organs. It impacts blood flow, it impacts fertility, and it impacts your menstrual cycle. When you have a matriz caida and it's happening for years and years and years with no relief, then it has a snowball-like effect on your reproductive health.

[00:15:07] And not only a reproductive health, but your life. In Mesoamerican medicine, there's no separation between the body and the spirit. There's no separation between physical and emotional. Anything that impacts your emotions will impact your womb. And anything that impacts your womb impacts your emotions.

[00:15:33] Josie: Yeah, totally. Can you feel where your womb is? Like from the outside? Can you tell if it's, if it's fallen? 

[00:15:40] Pãnquetzani: Yeah. I have the Womb Care challenge coming up in March, March 9th, 10th, 11th, and I'm actually for free walking folks through how to find their womb. 

[00:15:55] Josie: Amazing.

[00:15:56] Pãnquetzani: It is amazing because we go through our whole life and we can't, the womb plays such a huge role in our lives. It dictates our brain, our hormones, our gut, you know, it impacts so much. Even like childbearing and pregnancy, fertility, postpartum, menstrual cycle. It's a part of our lives every day. 

[00:16:23] Yet we don't know where the uterus is. Yet we don't know how to palpate the uterus. We don't know where the uterus belongs. And when we establish this, physical touch on the uterus. There's a mental spiritual connection that happens and it makes that connection so much easier. 

[00:16:49] When you feel disconnected from your uterus and you put your hands on it and you're like, oh, there she is. There's this little light bulb that goes off. There's like a flicker, like a fire, and I see people's faces just light up and change. It's almost like an orgasmic moment. Some people laugh, some people cry. Some people are just like, whoa, in shock, or there you are treating it like a little baby. And it's one of the most powerful things you could do to build that connection.

[00:17:24] The first step to healing your womb, the first step to healing anything that has to do with sexual and reproductive health is connection. We can't heal something that we're not connected to. And sometimes connection is all you need. Sometimes you just need nothing else. 

[00:17:46] Josie: Right, right. Oh, that's so cool. How neat to witness people connecting with their womb to see that spark happen. 

[00:17:55] Pãnquetzani: It's so special. I wish the whole world could see it. It's, yeah. It's beautiful, you're witnessing someone step into their power immediately. And you see them embodied, you know, you see, like, you feel that they're in their body and just, ugh it's beauttiful.

[00:18:18] Josie: Right, amazing. So is there a way, once you find it, is there a way to move it?

[00:18:26] Pãnquetzani: Okay. Yeah, so this is what I do. I also teach how to do this for yourself. We call it a solvada de matriz. And this is the number one way that we treat infertility in Mexican traditional medicine. Body work is a huge part of womb healing. 

[00:18:49] And I teach this to my more advanced students, folks who have taken my course, matriz y concha, lifelong self womb healing, which breaks down the Mexican traditional medicine and Mesoamerican protocol for womb healing through herbs, through touch, through healing foods, traditional foods, and traditionally prepared foods.

[00:19:15] And so what you do is you massage your belly very gently, very lightly. If you know where the womb is, then you know where the womb belongs. And so, solvadoras like me, folks who are skilled at palpation and moving folks call it womb massage. I don't like to call it massage because it's way more than a massage.

[00:19:40] Right. And it doesn't focus just on the muscle, it focuses on the entire viscera. It's the viscera, it's the muscles in the pelvic floor, it's moving the body because sometimes you can't get to the uterus unless you're in one of these really weird positions that have been handed down from generation to generation.

[00:20:01] And it's working on the floor. Sometimes my knees get so sore because I have to do like three different moves because the person's uterus is way back to their back. And, you know, I have to do stuff that I don't usually do, you know, extreme measures. 

[00:20:17] Josie: Wow, yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. Oh, I love that. That course sounds incredible too.

[00:20:25] Is that the one you just mentioned, the, is it la matriz y concha? Is that year round or? 

[00:20:32] Pãnquetzani: No, I only open once a year. Yeah, it's closed right now, but we do open in March. 

[00:20:43] Josie: Okay. Oh good, so coming up. 

[00:20:45] Pãnquetzani: Yeah. So coming up you'll be able to enroll and it's online. The whole womb course is online and then we meet once a week to do stuff together.

[00:20:59] What I noticed, this is the third online round, but I've been teaching matriz y concha for over a decade now. And what I noticed is that, especially when it comes to parents, we could give you all the online curriculum, but if we're not doing it together, life will get in the way. Right. Because you just don't have this time carved out.

[00:21:26] So what I started to do to support the folks who were in matriz y concha so that they could really get the, the most out of it, really just squeeze it for all its honey, is I started having weekly calls where we're like, okay, what do we need? Do we need to talk? Do we need to reflect? Do we need to support each other? 

[00:21:51] Or, do we need to steam together? Do we need to do castor oil pack together? Do we have questions? Because maybe someone has fibroid cysts and scar tissue and they have a particular question about their body. So having that live space in addition to the online learning, which is very robust, it's just so much more powerful, creates so much momentum. 

[00:22:19] Yeah. And the solvadas course, the one that's hands on where you learn how to massage your boom. That one's actually in person here in Long Beach. 

[00:22:27] Josie: Oh, cool. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah, I was looking at the I think it must have been one of the landing pages for that course, and I was just like, wow, that what a robust course.

[00:22:40] Pãnquetzani: It's, yeah. It's so much. It's really my life's work. It's everything that my fertility, painful periods, like all of my clients who come to me with struggles with their womb, it's, throughout the years that I've been practicing, piecing together the things that they most need, the things that help them thrive the most.

[00:23:07] And it's beyond like, Not only do I share my protocol, which is like, I was like kind of weird about it at first. I was like, okay, do I want to share this ancient protocol, my protocol, which makes it vulnerable to exploitation? But I know now I trust that I was given this gift. 

[00:23:31] One thing my grandmother told me is "tienes que" when I asked her for permission to teach. She said "tienes que mija." Like my daughter, you have to. If you know this and you know that other people don't know this and this will help them, then you have to, you have to teach, you have to help them. 

[00:23:53] Josie: Yeah. Ugh. I just got goosebumps when you said that. That's so powerful. Yeah, and then I'm wondering would it help folks with no uterus, because I'm asking this selfishly as well. I had a hysterectomy a couple years ago. But I'm always drawn to, you know, womb healing type stuff anyway. What do you think? 

[00:24:14] Pãnquetzani: Not selfish at all, not selfish at all. Yeah. I feel like if you have had a hysterectomy, then this work is actually crucial. It's more important. This is beyond self self-care. This is recovering from a major surgery. And a lot of doctors won't tell you what actually happens in the years to come after a hysterectomy. 

[00:24:45] They might tell you, yeah, you'll be on hormones for a certain amount of time, or your pain will go away because, you know, no fibroids or whatever. But they don't tell you that you could actually have prolapse because the uterus is, like I said, holding up your viscera and separating your organs. It's like a weight, like a, a bodybuilder in there holding stuff up at all times, and you remove that and so your entire pelvic floor and your viscera are weaker.

[00:25:18] They're down a teammate. And so what a lot of my hysterectomy clients have seen is a prolapse in a rectecele, a cystocele. So they're bladder dropping. The rectum dropping. Difficulty go to the bathroom. Peeing and pooping, both. And also a large amount of scar tissue and this scar tissue.

[00:25:49] I don't know if the doctor explained anything to you about what any abdominal surgery could do. Is that when you have a natural tear, this tear has a zipper like effect and it grows together. Your body knows how to heal from natural damage. From natural trauma. But a really sharp surgical blade is not the same type of trauma to the tissue.

[00:26:26] And so the scar tissue kind of doesn't know where to grow. And it'll just find something and grow on it. And then it pulls, whatever it grows on, it'll pull to the site of your incision. So after a certain amount of months, certain amount of years and decades, what happens is this scar tissue, it's almost like endometrial tissue, like the same kinda like spreading out that it does.

[00:26:57] Like what endometriosis does. So the scar tissue spreads and then it brings everything back to the scar tissue site, and it's pulling on fascia, it's pulling on bone, it's pulling on muscle. It's creating lack of mobility. One thing that is so important for your reproductive wellness and circulation is mobility in your organs.

[00:27:26] Your organs are made to slide and glide. This is why we have fluid, this is why everything is nice and gooey in there. This is why the pelvic floor is always expanding and contracting literally with each breath, right? There's a pressure, external pressure, and then it comes back in. And your organs are also meant to move as you breathe, as you walk, as you go about activities throughout the day.

[00:28:00] And when they freeze together, then they're not allowed to function the way that they need to function in order to keep you healthy. So think about like being in bed all day versus doing the things you need to do around the house. What I've seen is I've seen scar tissue go everywhere onto the pelvic bones, up into the liver, hardening the liver and gallbladder.

[00:28:38] Josie: Wow. So it is kind of like endometriosis, like it acts like endometriosis, huh? 

[00:28:44] Pãnquetzani: Yeah, it does. 

[00:28:45] Josie: That's so interesting. Wow, okay. 

[00:28:48] Pãnquetzani: The only thing is it doesn't flare up the way endometriosis flares up during the menstrual cycle. And it's not caused by hormones. So endo has a big, like, it's kind of like a rollercoaster, you know, the endo rollercoaster where like, You're good.

[00:29:06] Your hormones are okay. And then, oh my gosh. Pain, pain, pain. And then you're, okay. So with scar tissue, it's, it's gradual. 

[00:29:14] Josie: Right. That makes sense. Yeah. Wow. I'm really glad I asked that. I did not know. I did not, yeah. I didn't really know any of that, so that's so helpful. 

[00:29:23] Pãnquetzani: There's a really good resource called the HERS website, HERS hysterectomy.

[00:29:29] If you just search, put that in your search engine. HERS hysterectomy. And it actually has resources for folks who have had hysterectomies, and it also has space for you to put in your symptoms now after hysterectomy. Because they have a whole database. So that it's clear what happens after hysterectomy. 

[00:29:57] And then they they have a little pie chart showing like this many people have this symptom, that many people have this symptom. So that informed consent is all about knowing what could happen either way. Because we lack this, a lot of times resources like the hers, hysterectomy website and indigemama.com are so important because they're valuing your body autonomy.

[00:30:38] Josie: Yeah. Totally. I love that. Okay. I'm gonna look at your program then, more seriously for myself. 

[00:30:47] Pãnquetzani: Yeah. 

[00:30:50] Josie: So something else I read that you had said was, "selling yourself short is expensive." And I really loved that line. I was thinking about how it's challenging for me to inspire people to slow down, to take the time to prepare their body and their womb before trying to conceive.

[00:31:09] It takes like three to four months for a follicle to develop. And so I usually tell people that, you know, if they're using their own eggs, because they can really have influence over the fertile environment in their body if they kind of slow down and take that time to prepare.

[00:31:26] But a lot of times, you know, people are either on a IVF timeline, a pretty strict IVF timeline or almost just like their own self-imposed like, I just really wanna get, you know, I want to do this as quickly as possible because I feel like my time is running out. By messages that we have in our culture that our fertility goes away after a certain amount of time.

[00:31:47] So I wonder, You know what, what your thoughts are on that, on finding the right time to take care of yourself. 

[00:31:56] Pãnquetzani: Yeah, there is no right time to take care of yourself. And if you're waiting for the right time, then that's a recipe for burnout. Because life always happens. Especially if you're a parent. There's always gonna be other needs that you have to tend to. 

[00:32:17] And this is why I ask folks to go from this space of expensive, where we are martyrs for our families, where we're martyrs for our communities, we're martyrs for our partners, our friends, we're martyrs for everybody else. And that martyrdom doesn't save anybody.

[00:32:37] That martyrdom doesn't make you a better human, we're not out here trying to be Jesus Christ. And there's, there's this imposition on women where like, you have to bear the cross. You have to carry the weight. But all of that is the patriarchy.

[00:33:03] And so when we move to this space of it costing us this being expensive to a space of being expansive. Where I want to fuel myself, my body, my mental health. If I'm not in a grounded, happy space, then how could I pour out into other people? I could, I know because I've done it. I know that I could.

[00:33:36] But what happens to my body? What happens to my spirit? What happens to my home? And so not investing in yourself is expensive. Pouring resources, pouring time, and pouring love into yourself is the most expansive thing that you could do for your womb. 

[00:33:59] And your womb thanks you. Your womb will respond with more sex drive, more creativity, more energy, happier periods. Your womb will connect with you and show you that you're on the right track. 

[00:34:21] Josie: Totally. And I think too, that women feel that and also folks who were raised as women are sort of conditioned to have that role in the family no matter what gender. 

[00:34:35] Pãnquetzani: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[00:34:38] Josie: Totally, I'm picturing, have you seen Encanto, that Disney film? I'm picturing, was it Louisa that was so strong and held the world on her shoulders? 

[00:34:50] Pãnquetzani: Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting how you say 90 days, like you wait for 90 days for the egg health. Because for us, there's also a cycle. We also wait three cycles. And we don't count by days, but we count by three menstrual cycles. 

[00:35:07] Because unlike other cycles and rhythms in your body, Your menstrual cycle is long as fuck. It's 30 days. Your digestive cycle, like you're literally constantly digesting. Constantly all the time. But your menstrual cycle, you're waiting 31 days to go through that entire cycle.

[00:35:30] 28 to 32 days, right? So you need a few cycles in order for your body to get used to the changes that you're making and to adapt well. 

[00:35:42] Josie: Yeah, totally. So true. Yeah, that's what I usually tell folks, it's like they wanna know what the results are gonna be and how soon they're gonna see them. And I usually explain like we, we usually will start seeing a pattern, you know, after three cycles or so, you know, takes about three cycles. 

[00:36:02] Pãnquetzani: Yeah, that's awesome. I really like folks to challenge their own inner capitalist, you know, they're, yes, they're internalized capitalism where they want instant results.

[00:36:16] Ancestral healing is not a pill that you could take. Trust me, I'd have taken it already. Gave it to all my friends. 

[00:36:25] Josie: Yeah, totally. I love it. 

[00:36:31] Pãnquetzani: It's not a pill that you could take, so you sometimes it takes, man, it's really a circular journey. One of my clients came in and they're like, yeah, I fell off of self-care. And I'm like, yeah, welcome to real life. This is what self-care looks like. It looks like winning and losing and just getting back and just having that dedication even after you fall off, even after you go through the stress of life.

[00:37:01] You stay dedicated doesn't mean every single day without fail. You force yourself. It means right. You give yourself grace and you come back when you fuck up and that's okay.

[00:37:12] Josie: Yeah, totally, totally. So true. Something else I read that you said that I absolutely loved you said, "remember who you are so deeply that your great, great grandchildren could never forget."

[00:37:25] Ugh, what a great image and what a great line. I just loved that. And it really speaks to what I believe and teach about connecting with your essence or who you really are or your whole self. Would you talk a little bit about that, what that means to you? 

[00:37:41] Pãnquetzani: Yes. This was inspired by my now 83 year old grandmother. Who came to my house and she saw my big ass bush of mugwort. And she was like, "oh, tienes estafiate," like you have estafiate, we call it yeah estafiate in Spanish. And she was like, ah, she takes off a leaf, she smells it. And I see her like going somewhere else. 

[00:38:12] So I'm just like admiring her and I'm like, what, where, where are you going? Like what's gonna happen? We're on a journey now. And she said, ah, mi abuelito, my grandfather, he used to drink this tea every single night. And that helps with digestion and it helps with air. aire, we call aire you know, it's an element that causes indigestion and pain. 

[00:38:43] And she said, oh, I remember the smell, and I remember the taste and, oh, can I have some? Can I take some home? I was like, yes. And the amazing part about this is that I had that little mugwort plant since it was a little tiny plantling. It's like bigger than me now. And I would come out and talk to it every day and call it grandfather. I felt my grandfather in this plant.

[00:39:13] I felt like the plant is my grandfather. And so I would come out, I would talk to my grandfather, get advice. You know, it was like a whole relationship that we had. And we had ups and downs, like it got overrun by mites and it got overrun by some type of like fungus. And every time I brought it back and I'm like, come on grandpa, come on grandfather, you can do this. 

[00:39:40] And like moving it around different places in my yard. Where do you thrive best? So it's been like a huge relationship and I'm like, wow. My grandfather is here with me through this herb. His favorite herb is my favorite herb. Even though I never met the man because he was alive a hundred years ago.

[00:40:07] Even though I never met him, he's here with me and I could never forget this plant. I could never forget this connection. Somehow or every time something happened to that plant, I knew what to do. Right, this is the plant that I bathed myself and my baby in postpartum. This is a plant that my, my 14 year old son comes out, he's like, I can't sleep, so I'm gonna drink a mugwort tea with a little bit of salt. We drink it like a broth traditionally. 

[00:40:37] Josie: Wow, that's so incredible. 

[00:40:41] Pãnquetzani: Yeah. And the other thing that really was like making me feel this, my ancestors is my abuela. She came over my, again, my 83 year old grandmother when I was postpartum with, Baby three or four, I don't know, I lose count.

[00:41:01] She was here every time. My grandmothers gave me traditional postpartum care. And I'm actually writing a book on traditional postpartum care. And I include these narratives that my parents, my grandparents share with me. 

[00:41:18] Josie: Oh my gosh, wow. 

[00:41:20] Pãnquetzani: And so, in her hands, I swear that I felt all of my ancestors as she was wrapping me. And it was so gentle, but firm. It just felt like I was in another, I'm in another space. Like I'm not in my bedroom. I'm in some other realm where my ancestors are here with me cheering me on.

[00:41:46] And she told me, she said, mi abuela haría esto mucho. She says my grandmother would do this a lot. And she was sought out in her community to wrap people postpartum and to heal people postpartum. And she said yes, she was so well loved. And she helped so many people that on the day of her funeral, they shut down the whole mercado. And they took 50 busses to the, it was like a huge event.

[00:42:21] 50 buses to her funeral. To say goodbye to her. And then I just felt like, whoa, like this is me. Like, that's me. That's what I do today. In this modern context. I'm her, people look to me for this stuff. Yeah. And people need my help and seek my help and, I'm doing the same exact practices that she did on her friends and neighbors and family, and I never met the woman. I've never even seen a picture of her. 

[00:43:05] Josie: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Wow. That's incredible. 

[00:43:09] Pãnquetzani: So it's like when you have this medicine in your hands, I don't have to know my. My great, great grandmother, my tatarabuela I didn't have to meet her to know that I am her and I'm continuing her work because this is how strong that she, it's not due to me.

[00:43:29] It's not due to me and my genius. It's due to her. And the strength that she had. And the resilience and the power and the creativity. That she had that, wow. I wonder if she ever thought that her great, great granddaughter would be doing the same exact thing that she's doing.

[00:43:48] Josie: Right. Wow. That's incredible. I'm like covered in goosebumps right now.

[00:43:57] Yeah, it's because what she did, she did it so powerfully. She was so in touch with who she really was and her gift and her essence. That it just, it like catapulted forward into generations ahead. 

[00:44:12] Pãnquetzani: Yeah. Wow. A hundred years later and I can't imagine a hundred years later what my linen is just gonna look like. Who will be healing with their hands. Yeah. Who will be sharing, you know, in 100 years it feels like impossible to even think that far. 

[00:44:34] Josie: Yeah, totally. I know that's hard to even think about. 

[00:44:40] So I'd love to shift gears a little bit and ask you, I know you have such this unique and transformative story about your relationship to money. To me it feels so powerful and it's been helpful to read about it. Will you share your story with us about your relationship to money? 

[00:44:58] Pãnquetzani: Yeah, my relationship to money. Is a story about my relationship to myself and to my womb. I grew up in a working class community where there was a lot of violence of all type. Police violence, gang violence, drugs, you name it.

[00:45:19] And so this is the mindset that I grew up in, is don't ask for anything at the store. We don't have money, we're broke. Not ever feeling like I could ask for anything because I felt like we were in scarcity. But at the same time, there was this underlying feeling of wealth. Because we had so many family members, so many kids, so much joy.

[00:46:02] There was always home cooked food from scratch. And my grandma made too much food, you know, like food for everybody to go home with. And so there was this interesting dynamic of we're rich, we're poor. And we're very rich in community too, that community.

[00:46:27] I grew up in Echo Park, it's super gentrified now. But back then it was, man, I hope that everyone gets to experience what a true community feels like, where neighbors come out and go to each other's houses. It's ideal, you know? And so growing up when I had my first son, I had children with a narcissist who I thought was quirky and traumatized, which he was.

[00:47:04] I didn't know about narcissism and I didn't know, at that time I was in my early twenties. I didn't know a lot about mental health other than through the lens of trauma and racial trauma. And so we struggled a lot financially. I was working for free and for donations, going to births treating people in my home, pregnancy, postpartum, fertility.

[00:47:41] Using my magic in the same way that my tatarabuela did, for free. And it became so hard for me because it was like a full-time job. So now I have a full-time job as a healer that pays me $0. I have electricity and gas that are constantly being shut off. I have to go to my mom's house, drive over there to bathe a kid, to give him a hot bath.

[00:48:12] And that was just like a regular occurrence. It was just so normal to us. It was like, yeah. Oh, okay. So now we're gonna bump into this routine of not being home. And there was a lot of chaos because of the financial stress. I didn't want to charge money because I believed that my work is sacred. 

[00:48:48] If my family members did this for free, if I learned for free, if it costs me no money, no training, no college tuition, then that means that I owe it to my people to give this, to pass this on to them for free. And I had to learn the really tough lesson that I create.

[00:49:15] I am the creator of my life. And if I create myself a life of overwhelm, that's how I'm gonna feel. And that overwhelm spills onto the kids. There was a turning point where my then partner, he came home after a day of me working on people and it was a whole butt load of people. Literally, they're moms, their grandma, typical Mexican shit where you come with everybody.

[00:49:47] Moms, cousins, kids. Yeah. It was a great day for the kids. They loved it. They were so excited. They played outside all day, they were in the garden playing with mud. They were so excited and overstimulated that they didn't wanna sit down and eat. I couldn't help get them into their bodies so that they could feel that they're hungry because I was too busy tending to my guests.

[00:50:15] To the folks who I was treating, to the folks I was helping. And so, as soon as the guests walk out the door, the kids start crying. I'm hungry. They're all muddy. I'm like, "lemme take you a bath." "No, I don't wanna take a bath, I'm hungry." 

[00:50:29] So I go to the crock pot where I have rice, beans and veggies, that were cooking for, you know, for us to just pour to the bowl and enjoy. So I didn't have to cook all day. But the guests ate it all. 

[00:50:45] Josie: Interesting. 

[00:50:46] Pãnquetzani: And they didn't leave anything for me, anything for my kids. And that was my dinner. Right. That was all I had. I had nothing in the fridge. I had nothing in the cupboards.

[00:51:00] And I was like, how could these people come into my home and take everything, take all of my food, take all of my energy, take all of my time, and leave me like this. And so my then partner comes in and he's like, this is your fault. I'm outta here. You deal with this. We had one car back then.

[00:51:20] I was like, I need you to go to the grocery store. Please just bring groceries. He's like, no, you made this mess. You made this bed, you lie in it. So he takes off. And I feel like such a victim. I'm so, I feel like I like a martyr. Like, I have given so much and why doesn't anyone give back to me?

[00:51:46] Why do I have to feel sad and tired and I have nothing to feed my children? And I'm crying there with the babies cuz the babies were crying and then I just had this, it just clicks, you know, I just hit rock bottom. And then it clicks and I'm like, wait a minute. I allowed these people in my home.

[00:52:11] I didn't ask. I didn't require them to give me anything. I didn't tell them, serve yourself one bull and leave some for us. I didn't use my voice. I wasn't establishing boundaries that are healthy. And I realized that I'm the only one who's in charge of my children.

[00:52:37] I am the one who will give them the life experience that will either perpetuate all of the things that I learned, or will teach them something new, something better, something with more possibilities and abundance. And in that moment, I said, all right kids, come on, we're walking to the liquor store.

[00:52:59] See what we could buy there, the corner store. And I tell myself, never again am I gonna work for free. Never again am I gonna allow someone to take without a fair interchange. Right. And at that point, I started asking for donations. It's funny cuz that was like a big step for me. Ooh, donation, big deal. 

[00:53:27] No one gave me anything. They're like, don't, like, oh, it's optional to pay you. All right. I won't pay. So after that I started charging a fee. Then I did the math finally, cuz I hate math. So it took me a while. And I was like, whoa, I'm exploiting myself.

[00:53:47] I'm working for below poverty wages. All of these hours that I put in, all of the money I spent, I was giving them like fermented foods, different types of fermented vegetables to help with their sexual health and womb health and gut health and you know, just, All of these things that I'm giving them, lending them books.

[00:54:08] Giving them time on the phone, email. All of these things added up. And I was like, wow, I'm doing myself a disservice. How could I want justice for my people, if I don't want justice for myself? 

[00:54:25] Josie: Yeah. Good one. 

[00:54:27] Pãnquetzani: How could, how could I give my ancestors justice, if I don't strive for personal justice. And so I started charging fees that were just and fair. And now I charge fees that are not only just and fair, but they allow me to thrive. They allow my children to thrive. The other, not too long ago, well, a couple years ago maybe I don't know, last summer or the summer before. My in-laws were over and they're like, Wow, you guys are redoing the backyard.

[00:55:07] That must be, you know, you must be doing well. And I'm like, in my mind, of course, like this is all womb money. This is all womb love that's making space in my garden for all of my womb healing plants, for my temascale, my sweat lodge, for the outdoor kitchen that makes our family happy.

[00:55:32] This is a space for thriving. Because of what I've poured into people. Now they have poured back into me. And that is able to sustain my work, my family, my children, so that I can keep doing what I'm doing.

[00:55:50] Josie: Oh my gosh. Wow, it's that, it's bringing back that image of the effortless creation that Earth does. It's like so cool.

[00:56:01] Pãnquetzani: And this, this is why I feel like tapping into my abundance is to tapping in, is to tap into the womb. This is why I'm telling you like my story, overcoming financial trauma is a womb story. Because I had to go deep, I had to suffer, I had to feel these wounds, right. 

[00:56:27] I had to feel, I had to feel like I was a victim, I had to feel helpless, I had to feel powerless. In order for me to feel power. In order for me to, to be like, you know what? This relationship is bullshit. This, you know, dynamic of of serving effortlessly is bullshit. Like, I need to do justice for myself and my children. Abundance is fertility.

[00:56:56] And as soon as I tapped into abundance, just everything around me grew. As soon as I left that relationship, my business effortlessly grew. I was working maybe a few hours a week. I still work less than 20 hours a week. And my business just was effortlessly expanding and growing and you know, just fertilizing itself, sustaining itself. 

[00:57:26] And that's womb energy. Womb energy wants you to create something sustainable. For example, if we grow a baby, your womb grows that baby for eventually for the placenta to detach, for the baby to be born, to cut the umbilical cord, to eventually stop nursing, and then the baby goes off and creates a life of their own and they're not gonna need you forever.

[00:57:51] The time that they need you in their life is so short in the grand scheme of their life. And when we create from the womb, it's the same thing. We might nurture it, we might tend to it, and then eventually it just, it gets to a point where it grows itself. Your womb gives you self sustainable energy.

[00:58:15] If you're creating projects and you're putting so much effort into those projects and time, and those projects just fail, or you give up, you lose traction, then this is not womb energy that you're using. Or you have a dropped womb and it's the little tiny bit of energy, that your womb has for you. 

[00:58:41] But when you tap into this abundance and you have a womb that's just optimal, then your life slows in the same way. This is why some people don't understand, like, why do you teach about womb and the money? What does that have to do with each other?

[00:58:59] And I'm like, it's, it's everything. Money is just the paper, money is just the paper, but the actual movement of energy. Is the same, it's currency. Where is the current going? Where are you flowing? How are you expanding? Where are you planting seeds?

[00:59:25] Josie: Mm-hmm. Wow. That's incredible. I feel like I just had my mind blown multiple times. I'm like drawing all these parallels to my life. I'm like, whoa, that is big. That's really big. Wow. What an incredible conversation. I have learned so much. And I know folks who are listening have also, I'm sure have learned so much too. 

[00:59:53] Will you tell us where folks can go to find all of your offerings and support you and buy all your things?

[01:00:00] Pãnquetzani: Yes, support me and buy all my things. The Healing Money Trauma Workbook might be something that you're interested in. Just Google Indigemama or, yeah. Search Indigenous Mama Healing Money Trauma Workbook. 

[01:00:18] And then if you wanna join the Free Womb Care Challenge, it's for Black Indigenous People of Color only, it starts March 9th through 11th.

[01:00:27] And the link for that is indigemama.com/wcc, Womb Care Challenge, wcc. Indigemama.com/wcc. You can join there. And I do have a couple free webinars coming up, How to Heal Period Pain. But join the Womb Care challenge and I'll email you about the other stuff. So just make sure you get on the challenge. 

[01:01:02] Josie: Okay, perfect. And I'll put those links in the show notes as well. And just to let everyone know, I downloaded your money trauma workbook a little while ago, so I'm working through it and it's wonderful. I love it. Yeah, so good. 

[01:01:15] Pãnquetzani: Yay, it's all the prompts that helped me cuz I had to work through so much. And I do it again and again and again. And if I feel something, I'm like, what is this? What do I need to unearth? So you could do it 20 times. You could do it like, Once a year. If your business is growing fast and I recommend you do it every quarter. 

[01:01:39] Josie: Yeah, I could see that for sure. Well, thank you so much. I know you have to run. Thank you. So thank you, thank you. This was such a joy. 

[01:01:47] Pãnquetzani: Yes, thank you for having me. 

[01:01:52] Josie: Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility Podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz.

[01:02:09] If you like the show and wanna hear more, tap subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, and please leave us a review, it really truly helps. The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and produced by Rozarie Productions with original music by Jen Korte.

All content offered through The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is created for informational purposes only, it is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.