Episode 58 - Jai: Incorporating a Pleasure Practice into your Fertility Journey

Jai (she/they) is a full spectrum doula who centers birth, abortion, sex, and wellness. Today Josie and Jai discuss how to expand our thinking and build an intentional pleasure practice. This episode covers exploring our senses, a discussion about rope practice, defining pleasure for ourselves, and explores the question: can we access creative power without sex?

Content warning: this episode contains a brief mention of pregnancy loss.

[ID: A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 58: Jai @yourjourneywithj and Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier @intersectionalfertility.]

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Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.

[00:00:00] Josie: I am Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our Whole Selves.

[00:00:32] Hi friend. Oh my goodness, I am so excited to share this news with you. I have been talking about an upcoming offering that I was really excited to tell you about and my vision and hope is that I've always wanted to connect my podcast listeners to each other and also like my patients to each other. And I've never been able to figure out how to do that until now.

[00:00:59] So I'm really excited to let you know that our brand new Qmunity, and that's spelled with a Q cuz it's Queer plus community. And that's a term I learned from one of my teachers, king yaa. And it's ready. It's ready for y'all to come over and check it out and introduce yourself and get to know each other.

[00:01:21] You can just go to my website, intersectionalfertility.com and click on qmunity. You can also find the link in my Instagram linktree. You'll see it says Join Intersectional Fertility qmunity. Some of us are over there already. All of the podcast episodes are available in the qmunity, not just the audio, but also the video so you can watch each episode.

[00:01:47] One of the coolest parts is you can actually comment below each episode, so whichever episode you're listening to or that you just listened to, feel free to comment and start a discussion, or continue the discussion, or join in to a comment thread that other folks have started. And one of the things I love about this qmunity is that you can create your own profile with anything you want on there.

[00:02:12] There's tons of space for you to write your bio and what you're into and your links and your website, and people can direct message you if you want. So it's a wonderful way to actually meet folks and get to know each other. The type of people that are gonna be in this qmunity, I think you're gonna want to know other folks who are coming to this community.

[00:02:32] You know, other folks who are also listening to this podcast who are perhaps in a similar boat as you. So I'm just so excited for all of you to be able to connect and to strengthen this qmunity that we have and to strengthen our bonds that we have. Where we may feel kind of isolated or alone, you know, wherever we are, especially going through a fertility journey as a queer person, or trans or non-binary person.

[00:02:59] So head over and check it out again. Go to my website, intersectionalfertility.com, and then just click on qmunity. It will prompt you to create an account and just, you can go ahead and join, it's free. There is a paid version right now it'll be $26 per month, and with the paid version, you'll actually get access to extra bonus content from every episode.

[00:03:23] So, More of the conversation that's not available in the regular episode. Also some bloopers. And then you'll also get access to monthly events, which I'm really excited about as well. And then once you join, and you'll also get access to the recorded events. So if you missed the event or you couldn't a attend live, you can always watch the recording and then you can watch recordings from from previous months as well.

[00:03:48] So that library is gonna build over time, where there's gonna be a lot of awesome content in there. So yeah, that's available for you too. But if you don't wanna do the paid version right away and you just wanna check it out, there's also the free version. So come on over and yeah, I can't wait. I can't wait to see you in there and continue the podcast conversations and just get to know y'all.

[00:04:10] And hopefully y'all can get to know each other as well. So I think that's it. Please enjoy this episode today. It is so incredible with Jai, I know you're gonna love it. It was such a rich conversation. I learned so much, so I can't wait to hear your thoughts. So actually now we have a place for you to come and tell me your thoughts.

[00:04:30] So come to our qmunity and let us know what you thought of the conversation. I'm also gonna be inviting podcast guests into our community as well, so they may be there and you may be able to continue the conversation with them as well. All right, enjoy the show.

[00:04:46] Jai is a Black, queer muva, educator, advocate, nature enthusiast, and full spectrum doula, envisioning futures and pathways forward rooted in Black imagination while centering radical pleasure, community care, and love. Their work as a doula is to guide folks in shifting the way we think about birth, abortion, sex and wellness, by replacing fear and shame with empowerment through education and exploration.

[00:05:26] Jai is an advocate for finding pleasure through play, and their quote unquote secret agenda is to bring wellness to the community by creating affirming and supportive spaces for people to thrive. Welcome, Jai. How did I do on the muva? 

[00:05:42] Jai: Great, it's always interesting like hearing a bio read by someone else, you know, versus writing it.

[00:05:52] Josie: In your own, like in your own voice, in your mind. 

[00:05:54] Jai: I'm like yes, I do that. Yes. 

[00:05:59] Josie: Totally. Well, welcome to the podcast. 

[00:06:01] Jai: Thank you for having me. 

[00:06:04] Josie: Of course. So will you share with us your pronouns and where you're joining us from today? 

[00:06:10] Jai: Yes. I use she and they pronouns, and I am in Austin, Texas. 

[00:06:16] Josie: Nice. Oh, that's cool. I haven't been there, but I've heard such good things about it. 

[00:06:20] Jai: You know, it's Texas. 

[00:06:23] Josie: You're like, yeah. Sort of. Yeah. Yes. I feel that too. 

[00:06:29] So I would love to begin at the beginning, just what is your story that led you to do this work of how you say I love. Which is shifting the way we think about birth, abortion, sex and wellness.

[00:06:42] Jai: What I always like to say, I've done some sort of care work my whole life. But the idea of shifting the way that we think of things didn't really happen until I was an adult. I realized in college, I was in an organization and they had what was called Sex After Dark. 

[00:07:01] Like it was supposed to be a, the reproductive justice like department had come to do a talk to the organization and they're, you know, asking questions and things and I'm like answering stuff and asking questions and I was realizing everybody else was quiet and kind of looking and kind of like giggling and kind of like shy about it. 

[00:07:25] It was just interesting. Because this whole group, I've heard them talk about sex, but never in this way. So that was kind of the first thing I was realizing the disconnect of how people think about sex and and reproduction. And it was like the, you'll have the story with your friends, but not necessarily knowing about the health aspect.

[00:07:50] And then when it came to kind of the full spectrum of doula work, my interest to that was supporting my sister who actually was having a stillbirth. And so that really showed me like, yes, birth and pregnancy and those things can be beautiful, but there's also a full range of experiences and outcomes that all deserve care and support.

[00:08:13] And so that was really my entrance into like, Doula support in that way right off the bat, just realizing how much there needed to be. And then my own experience around pleasure, the birth of my son and the changes in my body, how I felt about myself. At that time, being a single parent and navigating pleasure and postpartum and all of those things.

[00:08:38] All of that together. Really just helped me to realize like, wait, people are not talking about these things at all. And if they are, it's very small chunks of what they are comfortable sharing and in very specific situations and environments. So I was like, let's shift that. 

[00:09:00] Josie: That was gonna be my next question is like, how do you want us to shift our thinking? What are we shifting away from and what should we be shifting towards? 

[00:09:09] Jai: Ooh. I want there to be a shift from kind of that like one isolated thinking of, there were so many people who don't, aren't taught about their bodies. So then they don't know about it, and then they have to kind of learn by themselves, versus this kind of open community aspect.

[00:09:30] So that's one part, let's not navigate in isolation. And then the second part is also let's broaden what we think of when we think about like, pleasure, sex, of birth, loss. Not everything is binary. And not everything just happens one way. And so for people to really, you know, expand their mindset, really think for themselves research and decide what do I believe? 

[00:10:04] What feels good for me, for my family, for my body, for my own experiences, and then make decisions based on that rather than based on just what you're told, or out of fear, or out of shame for something. Really reclaiming your autonomy to make decisions. 

[00:10:22] Josie: Yeah, totally. I love that, yeah. I especially love the getting rid of the binary in all ways, just like broadening the way we think about everything. Yeah, totally. 

[00:10:34] Jai: Yes. It's not just one or the other every time. Like, hold on. Let's open this up. You know, you may only have certain experiences, in certain identities and whatnot, but.

[00:10:46] There's so much more out there. 

[00:10:48] Josie: So much more. Yeah. Totally. I love that. 

[00:10:51] I also love that you call yourself an advocate for finding pleasure through play. Will you explain what that means to you and some examples of what that could look like? 

[00:11:01] Jai: Yes. First, I also love that terminology. A lot of the work that I did prior to doula work was with kids and families.

[00:11:11] So I'm always educating and working with kids in some way, and I just love how children just play. They have fun. They make almost anything a game. But at some point, once we become adults, we don't know how to play anymore. Shifting it to, like I said, the adult lens finding pleasure through play is around this idea of like, you can find pleasure and you can have fun, you can laugh. 

[00:11:37] Not everything we do has to have like a positive or negative outcome. Like it's okay for there to be space to just like try something. And so that's kind of where it came from, like pleasure through play of like just being and trying things both within and outside of like sexual pleasure. And even with having sex, like I love when I can laugh and joke. 

[00:12:02] Josie: Yeah, totally. It doesn't have to be serious, yeah. 

[00:12:05] Jai: Yeah. I'm like, hold on, I'm moving, my knees are popping. I'm like, woo. You heard that? Like it's ok. And that also just shows that whether you're with yourself, with someone else or multiple people, like that level of safety and vulnerability to also just be able to like laugh and play and feel free.

[00:12:26] Like feels really good and is like a whole form of pleasure in itself. Totally. And then's some examples. I guess those were a few examples I guess. Yeah, that's a couple. Just being like open to play and just unadultifying pleasure a little bit. 

[00:12:45] Josie: Yes. Oh, I love that word. Unadultifying.

[00:12:49] Yeah. That's brilliant. Because it's like, yeah, almost play could be anything that doesn't have, have like a purpose, you know? It's not like this has a purpose, it's just fun to do or enjoyable to explore. 

[00:13:05] Jai: Yeah. That is like such a key piece. Cause kids, they just do things just they're just, I'm like, why are you on?

[00:13:13] Yeah. They're just doing things. It makes sense to them. Okay, cool. Adult, everything has to have clear reason, clear understanding. It has to feel, and there has to be an outcome. Which sometime can be great, but then also that doesn't allow you to just be. And just try and just, do this thing. 

[00:13:35] Obviously setting up a safe, consensual container for these things to occur. But adults, we really don't often have the chance for that. So when you're able to be intentional about like creating space for yourself to experience pleasure, or to actually play. Then it's really interesting how that shows up for people. 

[00:13:57] Josie: Yeah, I wonder too if something that kind of clues you into the fact that it's play is maybe something that brings you into the present moment. Cuz there's no thought about the outcome. 

[00:14:09] Jai: Yeah. Trying to be present. Which is really hard for a lot of people. Cause you know, your mind is always moving. At least I can speak for myself. My mind is always moving and sometimes with neurodiversity, I'd be thinking about this and this and yeah. And then it's like, oh wait, now I'm not even present. 

[00:14:26] Josie: Right, yeah, cool. Yeah, I love that. Do you have a pleasure practice? And if so, what are some of the benefits you've noticed from having one? If you have one? 

[00:14:37] Jai: Yes. I'm actually deep in a pleasure practice currently. So I think I always have to give extra nuance to things. Whenever people say pleasure practice, I think some folks just think of like, do you do something for pleasure?

[00:14:56] And so a lot of people would say yes. But when I think of a pleasure practice, it's like something that I intentionally sitting down and thinking through. This is a practice, this is like a ritual, something I'm going to like actually try to hold myself to in a sense. 

[00:15:14] Normally I tend to be very, find pleasure and lots of things pretty optimistic about life. So it's just like, oh yeah. But then there's times that I go through either high stress or go through grief or whatever the case, and in those moments it is very hard to connect to like pleasure. And so I just navigated a lot of that. 

[00:15:39] From a move, from a recent miscarriage and for myself, I didn't realize in that moment that I wasn't accessing pleasure really. Until my co-parent sat me down and was like, Jai. What's going on? You're not like, I've been, not from a place of pressure, love and care, but like I gave you some space. 

[00:16:02] You've been on the couch. I've been noticing this. It's been dark. It's been, you know. And I'm a big, like, open the blinds, let the light in kind of person. And so he was just like, what do you need? How are you feeling? Let's, let's figure this out. 

[00:16:20] He shared some other things too, but really that conversation kind of made me realize where I was. And I was like, I have not really connected to myself in that way. Like, I was connecting to my heart and how I was feeling to my womb. And like, oh, you know, this baby and things like that.

[00:16:38] But not necessarily like, thinking of myself and like finding pleasure when creating my pleasure practice. I do very good at having a timeline. I was like, I need a goal. I'm a Capricorn, gimme a goal, gimme a layout.

[00:16:58] So I told myself, I like got a sheet of paper. I was like, okay, I like to draw and just write things out. So I said, for the month of May, what does my pleasure practice look like? What are things that bring me joy? What are things that feel good to me? What are things I am going to intentionally try to do on a daily basis to help get me to where I know I can be?

[00:17:19] And so that's kind of some of the things that I was doing to like create my pleasure practice. So for me, some of those things, not all of them, but some of the things on the list, like one was around getting out and like moving my body. We just moved to a new place so there's like nice sidewalks and stuff here.

[00:17:38] So I'm like, ok. You know, I was like, let me try to do 10 miles for the month of May, and I'll only count it on the days where I actually wanna like, get out and do it. And I'm feeling good. If I'm like, ugh, I gotta go, then I'm not gonna do it. The first couple days I'm like, okay, yay, let's go, let's go.

[00:17:58] And then I had a couple days I wasn't feeling it, so I didn't do it. I wasn't gonna force myself to. And then the day I got back to it, I was like, oh, I missed this. I'm like, missed it? You're not even a runner. But it felt good to be getting that fresh air, and moving. I just met my goal this morning, and it's only been two weeks. I was just like, what? 

[00:18:21] And so just doing that and like moving my body and being outside and doing things in that sense, that brought me pleasure, it felt really good. So then it made doing some of the other things for my pleasure practice, actually really easy to do. So one of the other things was like creating a space for myself, which I also tell people, depending on where you live, what you got going on, your space may be creating a little basket.

[00:18:49] It may be a closet, it may be a full room. But this is, this is my room, but it's, I was like, okay, let me lay out my mats. I like to be on the floor and comfy. I've got some ropes. If I wanna play with ropes, I've got some colored lights that I can put on if I wanna take some sensual photos. Like any of the things.

[00:19:10] So like I wanted to create my space and really make it just for me. And so as I was doing that, I was like, oh, this can be good here. And you know, like, it just like made me excited again to create something that was just for me. Because in day to day, I hold multiple hats and different roles.

[00:19:29] And so it, it's not often that I do get something that is just for me. And so that was my second like, big piece of my pleasure practice is like creating my own space. And then entering that space every day. Whether it's five minutes, fifty minutes, whatever the case. The last thing, which I have like a partner that I can like navigate this with, but it was to also like, touch him.

[00:19:57] Touch is one of like, in relationships, let me be clear. In relationships, touch is like my number one love language. If I don't know you, I'm like, Ooh.

[00:20:08] In relationships, yeah touch is my number one love language. So I love to massage, I create my own butters and oils and things like that. And so I was telling myself like, use your shade butter, use your oil, and just like massage. So some days it would just be like his hands, some days the back, some days other areas. 

[00:20:28] And like although that was something for him that he's like receiving, it was really, I was doing it for me because I like to touch and to give and that like monotony of doing certain movements feels really good to me. Those were three things that I had on my pleasure practice that I've been doing this month.

[00:20:52] I feel like I've been waking up like cheesing, been feeling excited and it just makes me feel more creative and like ready to even do things in my business and ready to see clients again. Cause I had paused seeing clients while I processed and so, yeah, I'm just like, oh this feels great. I need like revisit my pleasure practices every month.

[00:21:16] Josie: Right, that's awesome. And also, I just wanna say, I am so sorry for your loss and thank you for sharing about that. Yeah, that's so tough. And I love that you give yourself like some grace when you're not feeling it. That your pleasure practice doesn't become like a forceful thing on yourself.

[00:21:42] It's like, you're giving yourself that wiggle room. Like,ok if I'm not feeling like going out inside and moving my body, I don't have to. That feels so kind. 

[00:21:53] Jai: My other partner will tell you, I'm always like, never by force, always ease, always ease. Yeah. So, like yes, please, a life of ease is what I want. We're not forcing. Sometimes, you know, it takes a little work, but we're never forcing. 

[00:22:08] Josie: I love that. I love that because like then what's the point of a pleasure practice if it then feels like another burden? Yeah. 

[00:22:17] So I would love to talk about your rope practice if you're open. I've never, is that okay? I have never done one or I know nothing about it, so I would love to just kind of know what it is and how you got into it and wonder what are some of the benefits of doing it? 

[00:22:37] Jai: Yeah. So I'm gonna be biased as I share about it. So rope play, also known as shibari, which is, it's a Japanese rope bondage art. And then there's kinbaku which is kind of a branch of that, but it's more of a emotional and sensual aspect of it as well. That's more so what I tend to do. 

[00:23:02] You'll find different people in the rope community who do ropes and their, I guess, purpose behind it is different. So some people really care about like the aesthetics of it and the art aspect. So they do these ties that are like very intricate and I'm like, whoa.

[00:23:23] My goal is not to be that intricate. If I do something and it looks great, I'm like, let's please take a picture because it may not look like this again. I definitely lean into like the emotional and sensual aspect cuz I'm a tactile person. Like I said earlier, I like touch and feel and so even the process of like feeling ropes on me if I'm being tied or if I'm tying someone can feel really good.

[00:23:53] And then I'm also big on like my senses. So like, slow everything down. Lower lights, slower music, put on an incense, like I really, it's a whole vibe. And that's even like if I'm doing rope by myself and not with someone else, I still kind of create, I guess like a ritual around it.

[00:24:16] Some people also do suspension, so they'll like tie and suspend people up. I don't do that either. I have been suspended, I do not suspend people. And so it's pretty much just a type of BDSM, a type of kink. But the level or, I don't wanna say severity, but the level of risk, I guess, in it, cause with all kinks there's some type of risk and it's important to be aware of that.

[00:24:45] I keep it pretty low key on the risk area. Some benefits for me, it's one, a form of play because not often are you just tying people up or getting tied up. Depending on your profession, who knows. 

[00:25:04] Josie: Right, right. That's true. Some people are. 

[00:25:07] Jai: Yeah, you know, it's a form of connection. So I have a rope partner who is not my nesting or live-in partner. And we specifically just do rope together. Like that is the nature of the whole, we do rope. Occasionally we make on a hike and hang out, but it's really that we do rope together.

[00:25:28] And so that's a very like intimate connection. But intimate in the sense of like, it's us very close and like really learning each other and trusting each other as well. In this way, for me, I tend to be a fairly dominant person in most aspects of my life. Nice, but still kinda in a like leading take charge kind of way.

[00:25:55] Josie: Right. Capricorn vibes again. 

[00:25:58] Jai: Yeah, exactly. So when we get to do rope, usually I serve as a bottom. So I'm being tied, or at least for the past year, that's been the case. Because I've been playing with this concept of like vulnerability, and like power play and like the power and also being able to like, be submissive or to allow things to just be.

[00:26:22] And so my rope practice has like really supported me in that. And I'm like, okay, wow, this actually does feel good. I don't have to like be in charge of something. I don't have to make a decision. I don't have to like, think about all the things. I can just let it go, I can be here, I can enjoy the music.

[00:26:42] See how this feels. It's a little bit of compression. Well, I like compression. Not every person whose tied does. And so like that just feels good on my skin, on my body. And so, yeah. 

[00:26:54] Josie: That's so cool. Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. I've seen a little bit of, you know, folks doing a rope practice. And it is really beautiful. Like the patterns that the rope makes on the body, like depending on the different ties. And I'm wondering, is the rope soft? I'm, cuz I'm like, in my mind I'm thinking like rough rope. But is it? 

[00:27:18] Jai: So it kinda depends. It's usually not as rough as you may think. But it depends on like, there's so many different materials of rope. Also, if you use like a natural fiber, like a hemp or something, or like a straw type of natural fiber. Typically, yeah. It goes, it's supposed to anyway go through like a prep process before you actually use it on your body. So it's not like, you know, as firm and the more you use it, the softer it gets. 

[00:27:46] Josie: Okay, cool. And I can also see the benefit of like being forced to not be in control. To just like, you're like, I literally can't do anything, so I just have to let it go. Talking about that, I've had this memory of when I was a kid, I used to ask my mom to tie me to my chair when I would eat dinner. You're like uhh yeah. 

[00:28:13] I just remembered that. And I was young, I was probably like, I don't know, maybe four. Maybe like three or four. And she thought it was hilarious. So she took a picture of it and I have this picture of me tied to my chair. 

[00:28:31] Jai: Oh, she did it! That's so funny. But I mean, although different, it still kind of shows back to that like, children have the space to explore sensory things, because really a lot of kink and BDSM is all like sensory related play, you know?

[00:28:54] And so it's kind of like going, what things calm your nervous system? What things do you wanna try? And as adults mm-hmm. We may be less apt to like ask for that, or to even be open to trying that. 

[00:29:10] Josie: And I can also see the benefit of like just being forced to not be in control. You're like, I literally can't do anything, so I just have to let it go. That seems like, for when I was a kid and wanted to be tied to the chair, it was like, my mom kept being like, you have to sit and finish your dinner. And so I was like, maybe if I was tied I wouldn't have to like make the decision to like sit here and finish my dinner. I would just have no choice. 

[00:29:40] Jai: I think it's also really interesting cuz when people think of like, kink, BDSM, things of that nature, even rope. There's also a lot of prep and like conversation and consent that goes, you know, that goes into all the things. So even in those moments where I'm like not able to move or do things as much, we still have an understanding of like what is and what isn't okay. 

[00:30:07] And if at any point I'm like, Uhuh. And so that also feels really good of like, I can release control, but I still trust this person. And I know that if needed, here's my safeword, or here's how we're communicating throughout this practice. 

[00:30:26] Josie: Yeah. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, so that increases the, the safety level so that you can relax and feel that. That's awesome. Oh, so neat. So I would love to talk about when queer folks are trying to conceive the process can become so highly medicalized, and pleasure can really get left out of the equation unfairly because it can be a huge part of the equation, in other situations of trying to conceive.

[00:31:00] So I'm wondering what are some ways that folks can center their own pleasure and especially while on their fertility journey? 

[00:31:10] Jai: Yes, first off, I think this is a great question. Specifically in fertility, and I feel like in a lot of reproductive aspects in general, pleasure gets left out of the conversation. 

[00:31:25] Yes, let's talk about it. So one thing I would say for people trying to conceive and going through that like process, which can be very, like you said, medicalized, it can be a long process. It can be a physically taxing process, all the things. Is kind of how I mentioned what I was doing before about the pleasure practice.

[00:31:49] But like being really intentional and like sitting down and creating a pleasure practice, versus being like, oh, I kind of have one. I do this sometimes I do this other times. And it's not like a real practice, it's just things that you do. The same time when you're sitting down thinking, do we wanna go on this journey to be parents?

[00:32:08] Or do I? Or you know, wanna go on this journey of fertility? It takes a lot of thought and intention to do that. You're looking through different methods, you're looking at different providers, you're looking at all these things. And so I think also prioritizing your pleasure while doing those things should be an aspect for yourself and if you're with someone as well.

[00:32:30] And so sitting down, creating that, like what does that pleasure practice look like? Both within and outside of sexual things. So if that is running for you, then maybe that's what it is. If it is, you know, you like to paint, okay, maybe it's painting, but being really intentional about doing something for you, for like, your energy, your spirit, and then also something tactile and pleasure related that is for your body as well.

[00:33:02] Because going through that fertility journey can impact, you know, body, mind, spirit, emotion, like all the things. And it's, yeah. So you wanna be able to kind of also be filling that cup up or like already have it full or a plan to refill it as you're going through the things. 

[00:33:20] Versus that cup being empty or feeling like it's empty and then you're trying to figure out, how do I get water now that my cup is already empty? Versus let's locate the well, let's figure it out now. And we can just go back over time. 

[00:33:38] Josie: Yeah, have that plan in place. Yeah. I love how you said also that you know, that a fertility journey can affect so many different levels, and so when you're creating your pleasure practice to also think through those levels. Like what's gonna give me pleasure emotionally? What's gonna give me pleasure spiritually? What's gonna give me pleasure physically? Like to make sure you're also hitting those. Yeah. I love that. 

[00:34:05] Jai: And I think specifically in the fertility journey when thinking about the body and a part of pleasure practices in general that I like to tell people about is creating like a mantra or a mindset or even like some words of gratitude that every time you're doing this practice that you make sure to do specifically for your body.

[00:34:24] Because I think as you're going through the journey, sometimes in fertility you can become so focused on your body doing or not doing a job, a very specific thing at a specific time. That sometimes you can forget all the things that your body's doing and handling even outside of fertility. And so making sure to like, honor and like give your body that gratitude kind of throughout of like, This body is amazing as it is.

[00:34:52] This body is doing a lot as it does. And like honoring those things as well, and saying it truthfully and believing it as well. I think is really, really important. So no matter how your fertility journey is going, you still know and believe that to be true about yourself and your body. And not just thinking about your body once there's a specific outcome cause it's a whole journey. 

[00:35:21] Josie: Yeah. That's such a good point. And I'm so glad you brought that up cuz our bodies go through so much on fertility journeys and sometimes it can take a while and yeah, it can become quite transactional, that relationship with our bodies.

[00:35:38] And one dimensional. So that's, I'm so glad you said that to just to really take the time to give back to your body and give gratitude and make sure your body's doing okay, yeah. And feeling loved. Yeah. That's so important. 

[00:35:53] Jai: And I do wanna add my last thing. I'm passionate about this, depending on, you know, the nature of like how you're going through your fertility journey.

[00:36:04] Whether you're having to take certain medicines, if you're doing injections, if you know, like whatever that looks like. Also seeing if there's ways to incorporate pleasure around that as well. If it is you have to do injections. Okay. Does that mean I can get like a little, a little massage here?

[00:36:22] You know, that that becomes part of the practice, and that you kind of compare something that may be uncomfortable with something that also feels really good for you. 

[00:36:32] And so that would be kind of my other aspects. So maybe you start to, I mean, you're already looking forward to going through this process just because you're like, this will get me closer.

[00:36:44] But that doesn't mean it's always easy. And so if you're able to kind of incorporate that into your, maybe that's the start of your pleasure practice and then you do two or three things after or something. It's kind of like what we call like aftercare, you know, like, in sex and kink, you know, like there's this aftercare after this thing has happened.

[00:37:07] Then there's the taking care of yourself physically or emotionally after it. Thinking about what does aftercare look like throughout my fertility journey? 

[00:37:18] Josie: Oh, that's awesome, I love that. Yeah, cuz I know a lot of my patients struggle with, especially the shots, you know, if they're doing IVF or medicated cycles. It can get really overwhelming and they can dread it and it can be super painful, especially those progesterone shots in oil. Those are the worst. So I love that idea to pair it with something and then creating that aftercare, I'm wondering what you could pair it with, like good smells? 

[00:37:52] Jai: I love the senses in general. So I would say maybe that's when they're sitting down thinking like what things kind of ignite you. So like I said, for me it's touch, so I'm gonna always go towards something that's touch, but for some people it is, they love good smells. So light you a candle, light your incense, you know, put some cinnabuns in the oven, something that smells great.

[00:38:17] Yeah. If taste is the thing, maybe you have a little jar of candy or maybe you have, you know, some fresh fruit that you just really love or you know, you can pair it with something that you know feels really good for you. And so just depending on what sense kind of feels the best in your body, then that's kind of how I would pair it.

[00:38:38] Josie: Okay, yeah, that's really helpful. Cuz yeah. Some folks are gonna have different senses that they go towards more for experiencing pleasure. Yeah, that makes sense. I also feel like Capricorns in general have a superpower of experiencing pleasure. Do you think this is true? My wife's a Capricorn and she's like one of the best people at experiencing pleasure that I've ever met in my life. Maybe it's an earth sign thing. 

[00:39:09] Jai: You know, I've heard some things, but I may be biased if we're talking about charts, I'm a Capricorn Sun, but my Venus is in Scorpio, so I've also gotten that water energy too. You know, all the things, all the things, but you know. I'll say, yeah.

[00:39:28] I think Capricorn's a very straightforward, like to do things that make sense, that feel good. So I mean, that's part of, you know, accessing pleasure too. 

[00:39:41] Josie: Yeah, totally. I love it. That's so cool. 

[00:39:45] So I have this question that has come up a lot in my online course that I teach called Fertile, and I thought you might be a good person to talk about this question with.

[00:39:55] So in my program, we go through each element. So it's a five week program, and each week we go through each element. And when we get to the water element, the water element usually has to do with getting in touch with deep desires and sexual energy and that creative power for increasing fertility.

[00:40:15] And this question comes up around like, do you think we're able to access that creative power of sexual energy without sex? Or what is the difference between sexual pleasure and pleasure? 

[00:40:29] Jai: I say, yes. I think they're connected, not necessarily the exact same thing. And I often feel like if you're able to find pleasure in your everyday life in various things, then it becomes easier to kind of tap into that deeper sexual pleasure. But to me, sexual pleasure doesn't always have to equal sex. Even that's kind of the shifting how we think about like, what is sex, right?

[00:41:06] Because for one person, I may define sex in a very specific way. Somebody else may define it in a very broad way. Sex could be a variety of things. But that sexual, you know, that sexual pleasure, I sense it is more of a deeper, more, I don't wanna say like innate, because for some people it actually does take some work to be able to tap into that.

[00:41:31] But if we're thinking of water, I kind of think like if you're in the ocean, the beach, the more surface middle water that's like regular pleasure, you know, I can go out there, I can play, I can have fun, this is still great. But if I wanna go to the sea floor that's gonna take a little bit more is gonna be a journey to get there.

[00:41:54] And getting down there can be a little scary. It can be a little dark. But there's also so much life that's down there as well. And so many things that haven't been discovered or like tapped into. And so that's kind of like, if I was thinking of an analogy of, that's kind of what I would think of the difference between regular pleasure, like everyday pleasure and sexual pleasure. 

[00:42:21] Josie: Oh, I love that. I love that definition. I really resonate with water in general I'm a Pisces, and I have a Scorpion Moon, so I have lots of water going on. But I love that visual of the ocean where there's like a continuum of, you know, it's like, it's almost like a spectrum of pleasure.

[00:42:45] It's not like, Again, no binary. No, you're either having this kind of pleasure or this kind of pleasure. It's like, yeah, it's just different kinds and different depths. Yeah. 

[00:42:57] We had a little bit of technical difficulties, and we're going to pick up where we left off on our conversation. We had a little snafu and we lost the last bit of our conversation, so we're meeting up again now to rerecord and yeah.

[00:43:14] Thank you so much, Jai, for being flexible and for riding this wave with me. 

[00:43:19] Jai: Of course, of course. You know, we flow, we flow. 

[00:43:24] Josie: So we were talking about this beautiful image of the ocean that you used as a metaphor to describe that spectrum of pleasure that folks can experience. And I just love that vision of pleasure being more of a, like a continuum or a spectrum for that to describe like different kinds of pleasure and different depths of pleasure.

[00:43:48] Jai: Yes. Yes. I think everything, let's make it all a continuum, and a spectrum. Not as much binaries, and yes. It's all a spectrum. 

[00:44:01] Josie: Exactly, yeah. And I loved what you said. You had brought in thinking about asexual folks into that metaphor. Will you talk about that a little bit again? 

[00:44:11] Jai: Yes. So I like to think of pleasure, like I said, on this spectrum and not just kind of everyday pleasure versus sexual pleasure.

[00:44:23] Because for everyone, sexual pleasure can look different. Or for some people, especially if they're asexual or demisexual, they may not experience or desire the sexual aspect of pleasure, but that doesn't mean that they can't experience pleasure or don't experience pleasure. And so it's just knowing that pleasure can look differently for so many people in so many different ways.

[00:44:46] There can be two events happening that be the same thing, but the level of pleasure feels different depending on where you are, who you're with, how you're feeling that day, you know, all types of things. 

[00:45:00] And so keeping that in mind and making sure to be inclusive of different people's experiences when we think about pleasure. Cause the mind always just goes to the sexual and the romantic aspects of pleasure. Everyone can experience pleasure in some way, form or fashion. 

[00:45:19] Josie: Right. I love that so much. Yeah. And what I love about this more expansive, more inclusive definition of pleasure is that it's so queer. It's like kind of when we were talking earlier about like that definition of sex, like what is sex?

[00:45:37] And from a queer lens, from a queer perspective, it just opens everything up. Like we don't have to stick to those narrow definitions anymore. 

[00:45:47] Jai: Yes. I think for myself personally, I did some kind of pleasure and sexual journey exploration during my postpartum period after my son. And I was actively not having sex then.

[00:46:02] And so it was very interesting and eye-opening to learn about myself in ways and experience pleasure that wasn't tied to sex. And I think once I was able to do that, then once I did start having sex again, I feel like I've been able to tap into pleasure and experience pleasure sexually and non sexually in a lot more ways than I was before.

[00:46:25] Because I had kind of limited pleasure to just one thing, or things happening in one specific way, in one specific fashion. Now I'm like, oh, we all deserve pleasure, let's find pleasure in all the things. 

[00:46:40] Josie: Yeah, exactly. Oh, I love that so much. Yeah. Thank you for clarifying that. That feels much better to me, it feels more like I can relax around thinking about that concept of pleasure, whereas sometimes I feel like that concept or discussion around pleasure can feel intimidating or like pressure. You know, like, oh, better feel pleasure and better feel it in this way, or else it's not really real pleasure. So that feels so much better in my body to hear that definition. 

[00:47:16] Jai: I also love how you said it allows you to relax some, when we expand what pleasure can be. Cause as we had just mentioned earlier about like being inclusive, when talking about accessing pleasure, that also expands to people who are experiencing so many different things in their bodies. And so feeling like they can access pleasure may not be there. Whether it's going through their fertility journey, in postpartum, disabled, in larger bodies, or in any array of the different things.

[00:47:50] Feeling like I can't access pleasure or even having, like being lower income and having to work multiple jobs and not having time and feeling like I don't have time to think about pleasure because I'm busy all the time. If we expand what is pleasure, how do we access pleasure, and how do I make that a part of my day, you know, my life, then I think it's less daunting for a lot of people.

[00:48:21] Josie: Yeah. That makes so much sense. I love that. Okay, so how can folks find you, support you by all your things, and do you have any upcoming events or any offerings that you'd like to talk about? 

[00:48:35] Jai: Yes, yes. So I'm on Instagram @yourjourneywithj. That is the best way to connect with me and to figure out the links for all the things.

[00:48:47] I'm constantly like changing websites and trying different platforms and things like that, but no matter what my Instagram will remain the same. And the link in bio is where you go. The link in bio will have my website, ways to book me for various types of support, resources for all things reproductive justice, as well as how to purchase things or attend offerings that I may have.

[00:49:13] Things that I've got going right now. Diving back into pleasure work. Always doing it, but having more of an emphasis right now, especially with June coming up. People can purchase a pleasure journal that I have. It's an interactive journal. It's up there now. I wrote it last year. 

[00:49:33] It kind of came together into one book, but it really stemmed from me working with different clients and like, I'm leaving their house. They're like, "Jai? I got a question, you know, my six weeks post partum is coming up and I feel this way," or you know, "how should, I don't wanna do anything." Or I'm excited, I don't, you know, different things that, there were always that question and some hesitancy around like asking and talking about it.

[00:49:59] And then in my friend group, I'm always, which I don't know, they designated me this friend, but the person where like, I get all the sex questions. And so, you know, we'll talk about different things. I'll ask questions, be like, have you thought about this or that? Then one of my friends was like, they just need a book for this.

[00:50:16] I was like, you're right. One, I'm sure there's plenty out there, but also, you know, why not more? And so, it's an interactive journal, so it's not so much like, this is not, if you're like, oh, I wanna read about pleasure, I want to learn the technicalities and things like that. It's not that, it's also not just a lined journal where you just have to write about your own pleasure.

[00:50:45] There are pages of that, but that's not the focus. It's really a workbook that has activities for you to think about how you feel about yourself, yourself in relation to other people, and then different aspects of pleasure. So even body love, body acceptance or neutrality. What intimacy looks like for you, what kink may look like for you, how you may want to feel when it comes to pleasure.

[00:51:14] Like so many different aspects are kind of hit on. It also has a couple like assessments. If you are with someone, you can kind of fill that out and they can fill it out and then y'all can discuss. And you're like, I put communication at five stars and you put it at two. Hold on, let's figure this out.

[00:51:33] I thought we were on the same page. So it's kinda a mix. There's a couple like crosswords in there that's just like fun things. And so it's a mixture of quite a bit. It is really supposed to be interactive and there's a few pages that kind of tell you like, go do this, like try this or watch this show and then write about it.

[00:51:53] So yeah, I love it. I'm also biased cause I made it, but but it's supposed to help folks no matter where they are in their relationship with pleasure. Or their own bodies or you know, whatever the case. So that journal is there. And then dropping in June, I have some PDFs that will be available for folks.

[00:52:18] So maybe you don't desire to do the whole journal right now, you're just kind of focusing on like something very specific. I'll have three different PDFs that will be available for download, Creating your Pleasure Practice. And so people will basically have like a little worksheet to help them figure out.

[00:52:39] How do I create a pleasure practice? What are some things I should consider? And then of course, they can tweak based on who they are as an individual. And then there will be pleasure mapping, which is essentially thinking through on my body, what does pleasure look like in my environment what does that, what does pleasure look like?

[00:52:58] And kind of thinking through and getting creative, using colors and like, and kind of mapping out how pleasure shows up for you. And then the last PDF that will be available is about incorporating pleasure into your practice. So specifically for other doulas, I like to coin it kinky birth work.

[00:53:24] But specifically for other doulas who oftentimes pleasure isn't much of a conversation when it comes to birth or fertility or loss. And so this is more of a few questions, a few things to think about of how can you incorporate these conversations of pleasure with your clients into your practice. Because some people are not comfortable talking about it.

[00:53:48] And so it's just to kind of help guide doulas specifically. Doctors can use it too if they want. But yeah, those will be some PDFs available. And lastly, I have a virtual group slash workshop vibe that will be happening in June called Accessing Pleasure and Postpartum. And that will be postpartum folks getting together.

[00:54:14] And we're gonna be talking about what barriers to accessing pleasure are we currently experiencing, or are they currently experiencing. And then also thinking through some tangible tools and like starting to create that pleasure practice for them. And so, Postpartum is not just that first six weeks.

[00:54:32] Anybody in the first three years of having a kid, come on. And also not just if you had a child, but also if it results was like stillbirth, an abortion, a miscarriage, any type of postpartum experience, this applies to you. 

[00:54:50] Josie: Got it. Okay, I love that. Oh, these resources you've created are just so needed. And I don't feel like there's a lot out there, like what you're doing. I feel like this is so expansive and inclusive and important work, and I love the fact that it's interactive. That it's not just reading a book, but it invites you in to do the work. I mean, cuz how else are you gonna, I mean, pleasure is interactive and, and you know, partly physical. So that makes sense to me that that's the structure that it should be in. So, yeah, I love that. 

[00:55:35] Jai: Thank you. I'm excited about it. One, cause I see a need for it, for people. And I've been really intentional about like creating things, not just that I feel like should be there, but that I'm hearing need to be there.

[00:55:48] And that I've like tried myself, so I'm not gonna walk you through creating a pleasure practice if I have not tried this, if I haven't done it as well, so I'm really, I'm excited for it. I think right now a barrier, I guess I'm experiencing with it or noticing, showing up is that a lot of people are experiencing, disconnects when it comes to pleasure, have the desire to connect more.

[00:56:15] But there's still kind of that like slight shame around it. I'm like ooh I don't really wanna talk about it or is this something I can just kind of, it'll get better. Do I need to go to a workshop to learn about pleasure? It should come naturally, you know? And so that's what I'm noticing when I talk to people, some, some things that are coming up for them. Now we are prioritizing pleasure all 2023 and beyond. 

[00:56:43] Josie: Yes, I love it. 

[00:56:45] Jai: So get this little pdf or get a book or get this thing and I think that's why there's different levels. So if you're like, I'm not sure, just do a download. It's two pages. Okay. Do it, see how it feels? No pressure.

[00:56:58] And then maybe you're like, let get a book. Let me go to a group. You know, depending on where you are. But I think that internal release of like shame or unsureness or like, I'm experiencing this and now we're talking about it, bringing it to light. I think for some people it's kind of hard to take action on, you know, getting a resource.

[00:57:21] Josie: Yeah, totally. I am so excited to send folks to your resources that you've created, because I feel like this comes up a lot in my work where it's like, I'm often encouraging folks to create some sort of pleasure practice or to center pleasure, especially on their fertility journey.

[00:57:42] But then it sort of stops there. Then I'm like, then go to someone else to figure out how to do that. Cause I have some ideas, but I think they're pretty limited. This is so good. I'm so excited. And, and like, I cannot wait to just like, direct people to you so they can, like, these are like, this is how you do it.

[00:58:03] Like this is the steps or the, kind of nuts and bolts of how you actually put together, you know, the practicality of that. 

[00:58:12] Jai: Yeah. And then you can, you know, decorate it and make it in the way. Add your glitter. Do it, make it your own. Yes. Yeah. But I think that is, you know, where people struggle, like, like you said, the nuts and the bolts of like how do we build the thing? Yes. And then we can decorate it and paint it and add stickers. 

[00:58:29] Josie: Yeah, totally. Make it pretty. Good, well, I will put all of that info in the show notes, all the links to everything you just mentioned so people can access it easily. And I just wanna thank you so much for this conversation, for sticking with me through all these tech issues that we experienced.

[00:58:51] I am just so grateful that we were able to have this conversation and that folks are gonna hear it and gain so much knowledge and feel so supported and seen. Through the work that you're doing. So thank you, thank you for being here today and yesterday and the day before. 

[00:59:09] Jai: Yeah and thank you for creating this space and holding it for people to have these conversations.

[00:59:14] I told you via messages, like I had been listening and I'm like, oh, this is inter, oh yes, yes. So these conversations also need to happen, cause people are having them maybe individually, but to have a platform where people can share and reach more, I think is so important. Especially on fertility journeys with People of the Global Majority, with queer folks. I think that's all like, so important. So thank you for creating this space for people to come and share and Expand. 

[00:59:44] Josie: Yes, absolutely.

[00:59:48] Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility Podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz. 

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