Episode 59 - Sabia Wade: Why We All Need Liberation

Sabia (she/they) is a Black, queer doula, CEO, educator, and the author of Birthing Liberation.  Josie and Sabia discuss all things liberation, including how even people with privilege need liberation. This episode covers things like feeling emotions in the body in order to take action, unpacking shame, and how trauma affects everyone differently. Sabia also describes the difference between cultural competence versus cultural humility, and gives advice for queer, trans, and non-binary People of the Global Majority who are trying to conceive.

[ID: A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 59: Sabia Wade @sabiawade and Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier @intersectionalfertility.]

Content warning: brief mentions of infant mortality, maternal mortality, and medical racism.

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Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.

[00:00:00] Josie: I am Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our Whole Selves.

[00:00:32] Hi, friend. I would like to officially extend the invitation to you to join us in my global online qmunity, and that is spelled with a q. So queer plus community equals qmunity. So it is called the Intersectional Fertility Qmunity. And you can join from anywhere in the world and you can also download the app to your phones.

[00:00:57] You can stay connected to the qmunity and access it whenever, wherever. One of the things I love about it the most is that it has nothing to do with social media. It's not on Instagram, it's not on Facebook, it's not on any of the other platforms that I don't know about. It's its own thing. So it's distraction free, which I really love.

[00:01:18] And you can meet other queer folks who are either on their fertility journey or connected to the fertility world in some way, some of whom may live near you, which would be so cool. You can also continue the conversation from any of these podcast episodes in our qmunity. So all of the podcast episodes live in the qmunity, and not only can you listen to them, but you'll actually also be able to access the videos, the video version of each episode, so you can watch each episode.

[00:01:49] And with that comes some closed captions. If you need those, those are available for you as well. It's so cool, there's so much in there. It's beautifully designed, it's really easy to navigate. I just have loved setting up this qmunity for you and getting to know folks who are joining. I've been also inviting podcast guests, all of the previous podcast guests from the Intersectional Fertility Podcast to join us over in the qmunity, and several have and I will continue to invite every guest. 

[00:02:20] So, yeah, so that's cool too. If there's someone you really loved hearing about on the podcast, you can come see if they're in the qmunity and connect with them further. So all of this is free. It's free to join and everything I just mentioned you'll have free access to.

[00:02:36] And then there's also a paid version. Right now it's $26 a month, and with that version of becoming a Paid qmunity member, you'll get access to bonus podcast content, which will include some bloopers and also just some extra content from each conversation. Some of this extra content, I really would love for you to hear. There's been a few that have just been gems, really great content. 

[00:03:01] And then you'll also get access to monthly live events and the recordings of those events. So if you can't make it live, you'll be able to access the recording and all previous recordings as well. So that will be really valuable.

[00:03:15] So to join us, just go to my website, intersectional fertility.com and click on qmunity. Again, that's spelled with a Q. And you can also find the link to join in my Instagram profile. So my Instagram is @intersectionalfertility, and you can find the link in my bio to join us there as well. So once you click on either of those two links, either on my website or through my Instagram, it will just prompt you to create a profile for free.

[00:03:43] And then that's it. You've joined. So you can go ahead and create your account, and then you can come say hello and introduce yourself and join the qmunity. So we can't wait to see you there. I would love to hear your thoughts about this episode in particular with Sabia. It's such a good one. I'm really excited for you to hear it, and hopefully we'll get to connect further in the qmunity. All right, see you soon.

[00:04:16] Sabia Wade is a Black, queer, CEO, investor, author, educator, full spectrum doula, and expander of Black Luxury. Sabia is the founder of Birthing Advocacy Doula Trainings, an accessible and inclusive training program for community care workers and for the village, a nonprofit providing doulas at no or low cost to low income and marginalized communities in San Diego.

[00:04:44] As a coach, board member, investor, educator, and programming development consultant for organizations throughout the birth and reproductive health industry, every part of Sabia's work centers on liberation of all people through reproductive justice. Her newest business, Loads of Pride as a new frontier in the trucking industry, centering jobs for BIPOC and queer individuals and aims to show just how connected it all is.

[00:05:12] Her book, Birthing Liberation: How Reproductive Justice Can Set Us Free is now available for purchase. Welcome to the podcast, Sabia. 

[00:05:22] Sabia: Thank you for having me. Also for like, I feel like there's been schedule changes and you've been rocking with it. I appreciate it.

[00:05:30] Josie: Oh, no worries. Absolutely. Oh, of course. Yes. I completely understand scheduling changes. So will you share with us your pronouns and where you're joining us from today? 

[00:05:43] Sabia: Yes, my pronouns are she/they, either is fine. And I am currently located right outside of Atlanta, Georgia. Not that anyone even knows that sometimes, cuz I'm always everywhere.

[00:05:57] People are like, are you still in San Diego? And I'm like, no. Are you over here? I'm like, no, I'm just everywhere and nowhere at all. 

[00:06:04] Josie: Right, right. You're omnipresent. I love it. So what is the story that led you to do the work you're doing today? You're doing so much as a CEO, investor, author, educator, full spectrum doula, and, my favorite, expander of Black luxury. And I would love to know more about that. 

[00:06:22] Sabia: Let's see, I mean there's like always origin story, but the funny part is I was on Facebook, of course. And you know, Facebook shows you all these memories. I had a memory from like 11 years ago. Either 11 or 12 years ago, and I wasn't even a doula yet, and I was like, I'm not delusional, I'm an entrepreneur, right?

[00:06:45] So that's always been something that's been like centered for me. I didn't know the how, but I always knew the what, I guess. Even when it didn't exist, even when the businesses didn't exist, even when I wasn't sure of like how I exactly wanted to do it.

[00:07:01] I knew that I wanted to be my own boss. I knew that I wanted to build something and I tried many a times before and like did little things that didn't work out, and then I tried another thing that didn't work out, so just putting that out there. But my way to doula work was being in the medical field and being like, what? What is this? 

[00:07:22] And also apparently I wanna be in this, but like, I dunno if I wanna do it in this way. Cuz I was like on my way to become like an RN and all that kind of stuff. And then I found doula work, long story less long, became a prison birth project doula. Did that voluntarily for two years, and then started branching out on my own, moved to San Diego, started working, quit my job, which, you know, I love what I did, but I wouldn't recommend the way that I did it.

[00:07:50] Josie: Mm-hmm. Good distinction. 

[00:07:52] Sabia: I was like, fuck it, I'm just going. I'm going for it. I've got no money, but I'm gonna have to figure it out. Right? But that for me was like, that was my journey. So I'm not, I'm not here to tell people, like, quit your job and just go do whatever, right.

[00:08:07] Because there's hardships that comes with that, with that journey. I would say that I have always known myself to be a caring person. I've always known myself to be someone who wanted to care for people and like directly, like I love the rawness and being there during those times and holding that.

[00:08:29] But I also always known that I wanted to be my own boss, and I knew that for me to be happy, I would have to feel free. I would have to feel a level of liberation on a daily basis, which is why I said at the beginning, I'm everywhere and nowhere at all. Because like, to me, that's my form of like, I can be wherever I wanna be. When I wanna be there. 

[00:08:54] Josie: Yeah, that's like true freedom. 

[00:08:56] Sabia: For me. Somebody else, maybe not so much, but for me, like the fact that even when I have like hard work days, being a CEO and all that kind of stuff is like on top of being Black, on top of being queer, on top of being, right. There's always these things that you're moving through, teams and feelings and all of that. But like, I wake up every day and I'm like, I can be where I wanna be as long as I take this laptop. Okay, fine. I can do this. 

[00:09:21] Josie: Yeah, that's amazing. Totally. Yeah, I can really relate to that. I feel similarly and at the core of everything I've been doing for the last 15 or more years, is that entrepreneurship, no matter what I've tried and what has failed and yeah, totally. 

[00:09:38] Sabia: And it comes with a bunch of, of a bunch of failure, right? Before that one thing. My best friend reminds me of that cause I'll be like, oh, whatever. Like maybe someone will say something about my work and, I tend to be like super humble. And she's like, no, remember you were doing this prior to becoming a doula.

[00:09:55] You always, we knew that. You always wanted to be your own person, you always wanted to build teams. But you found a way to do it mixed with your passion. And that's like, that's the time it went like, oh, this makes sense. 

[00:10:10] Josie: Yes. Like everything aligned. Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. And that that can feel free and safe almost for some people. And then for some that can feel like panic inducing. 

[00:10:22] Sabia: Exactly. And sometimes it's panic inducing for me too, right. But it's just like, which panic do I wanna deal with, you know? I used to actually have like literal panic attacks when I used to work in corporate spaces.

[00:10:33] I would literally have panic attacks in the office, like full out middle of the office body shaking. And that's where I was like, I was like, what? I have to do this a different way cuz my literal body is telling me, get outta here, all the time. And also to answer your other question as far as like being an expander of Black luxury.

[00:10:56] One of the things that was like really central to my identity, obviously as being a Black, I identify as a Black non-binary woman. And also I know the perception of me is obviously gonna be a femme Black woman, right? And I also feel like in the world historically, like people always look at us to do the most work, to have all the solutions, to do all these things, to sacrifice, to not have as much, you know what I mean?

[00:11:26] It's like this idea, especially being dark skinned too, it's like, oh yeah, you're supposed to be this way. And also I think there's, even in social justice spaces, it's like the way that you prove of your commitment to this work is to always be in deficit. It's like be in deficit, show how hard you, show how much you don't have, show how you can't pay your rent, show how you, whatever. 

[00:11:50] And then how you still show up for the meet, like. That is not sustainable. One, and it's also not something that needs to be mirrored and duplicated, right. So one of the early commitments that I made to myself was like, I'm gonna pay myself first.

[00:12:07] I have to resource myself. For many reasons. One, because I'm worthy of it regardless of what I do, but two, specifically because of the work that I do. That like, I need to be resourced. So like, and I had to learn that through being a doula, and not charging enough, and not being able to pay my bills, and having mental breakdowns, but still showing up for births.

[00:12:30] And I was like, this is not, something's not matching. Like how can I tell my clients, take care of yourself. Do this, have these boundaries and I'm not working in that way, right. So for me, like really shifting that meant not only the financial piece of like paying myself, but it also was just like saying no to things.

[00:12:51] Being a boundary and my time, right. Being able to say like, you know, I had to even switch like, like what opportunities would come my way. Like before I would just like jump on everything cuz it felt like I gotta do it all, I gotta do all. 

[00:13:03] Now I'm like, I'm gonna be selective what is in alignment with me, what I have capacity for, and then also giving myself the ability to shift my, change my mind. Right, and giving myself the ability, especially as a Black person, to like not have it all figured out. To not know everything, to make mistakes. 

[00:13:24] And also for sure, giving myself luxurious experiences. Luxurious experiences to me don't mean like you have to travel to Bali and be like, I'm staying on the water or whatever. But it's like I like to say like, moving tea kettle slow. Like when you boil some water, it takes time, right. And you gotta wait for it to, you gotta put it in the kettle and you gotta put it on the stove and you gotta wait for it to heat up.

[00:13:49] And like, then it starts boiling, but still not hot enough. You gotta wait for it to like, you know, you're like, okay, right. Cause we're so used to like just putting our water in like an instant hotness or Keurig, whatever. So, For me, it's like moving tea kettle slow. Like being like, I'm not moving fast today.

[00:14:05] I'm gonna take the time to moisturize my skin. I'm gonna take the time to close this laptop. Everything else can wait till tomorrow. But for me, I feel like because I am Black, because I do have the body that I have, I have to put that forward so that people know what to expect. So like if you email me, I'm like, Hey, I respond when I respond.

[00:14:29] Josie: Yes, yes. I love that. Yeah. 

[00:14:31] Sabia: I'm not in a rush, like if it's emergency, feel free to hit me up. It's just more so a statement that I want people to know. Like, you cannot come to me. One, you probably usually come to me for my labor, but you cannot command my labor at your beck and call.

[00:14:48] Josie: Totally. Ugh. I love that so much. I love tea kettle slow. I'm gonna keep thinking about that. And I love that visual and what that feels like. Yeah. You can't rush it. You can't rush a tea kettle. 

[00:15:02] Sabia: No. You can turn that, you can turn the fire up to hell and you're still gonna be sitting there. It's just, it's not instant, you know?

[00:15:09] Josie: Does not matter. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Oh, that's so great. I love that so much. Yeah, and when I was emailing you for the podcast, I loved the response that I got. Just like that automatic response that goes to probably everyone that is just like, I'll get back to you when it's in alignment, you know?

[00:15:29] No rush. Yeah, I loved that. And it's a good reminder for all of us. It's good modeling for everybody. 

[00:15:35] Sabia: Cause most things are not urgent. We feel that way, right? Because we're like in this society that like says like, which is why we don't have a whole bunch of tea kettles. Everybody's using the instant, because it's like, instead of taking literal 15 minutes to make your tea mm-hmm. You gotta take two minutes. You gotta get to the next thing. All the inventions and things that we have are very much like, how do we make this average everyday thing into like the smallest amount of time possible.

[00:16:02] So that you can build, you can do 50 things a day instead of 10. So I think like it has to be this intention around like, I'm not gonna move. At the pace of the world. I tell people, like I move at the pace of me. Some days that's fast. Some days not so much. Yeah, exactly. Do what we can. 

[00:16:23] Josie: Yes, exactly. For you all who are not watching the video of this and just listening, Sabia has gorgeous, luxurious rainbow hair today, which I think also fits. 

[00:16:35] Sabia: Yeah. Happy pride. 

[00:16:36] Josie: Yes. Happy pride. So I am obsessed with your book. I've got it right here. Birthing Liberation: How Reproductive Justice Can Set Us Free.

[00:16:47] What an incredible book, the whole thing is just like underlined and starred and I've got notes in the margin. 

[00:16:57] Sabia: Thank you. 

[00:16:58] Josie: Yeah, it's incredible. I really do believe that this book holds the answers to so many problems that we're facing right now. As you say in the book, racism is a national health crisis. It absolutely is. Will you explain how liberating ourselves helps us do the work to liberate others? 

[00:17:17] Sabia: For sure. Thank you, one for all your words about the book. It's like always so interesting I'm like, oh my gosh, what did you highlight? What can I do? You know what I mean? Cause it's like totally, you write this book in this very like private space.

[00:17:31] And then like you bring it out to the world and you're like, Okay, how are people gonna perceive it? Like I'm not, not really sure. And there's also the personal perception, even if it's not how I necessarily meant it, is like so important. It also adds to my knowledge as well.

[00:17:51] So I love just seeing how people take it in personally. So liberation of self, right? Like, so I think when we think about all the chaos that is in the world, from racism to transphobia, to just bullshit, there is this question when we detach ourselves, right? Because like when you're attached to it, it's very easy to be offended, right?

[00:18:16] Like, why would you treat someone like this? Or why would you think this way of me? Or why would you wanna take away my rights? Like, that's of course. When you're able to detach yourself, and look at someone from a bird's eye vie, the question for that person who is attacking someone else's humanity really becomes, what does this person need?

[00:18:41] Because something is not being met here. Whether it is the person who is white and doesn't like Black people or whatever it is, like, you know, racist towards Black people. The question is like, what does this person need? And some of it may be they haven't been validated in their own experience throughout their life, right?

[00:19:04] They probably hold some trauma with their families, with their whoever, right? Like maybe they need to feel valued. They don't understand value without power. There's just like these things that come up, and so when I think about it that way, that I'm like, they are not liberated.

[00:19:22] They themselves have not experienced liberation. And their liberation and what that need is may look different. So maybe they need liberation from capitalism. Maybe they need liberation from family trauma. Maybe they need liberation in their sexuality that they may not be open with. Right, like maybe they hate me.

[00:19:42] Like whatever these thoughts are. When I think about if that person can get really what they needed and can be liberated, right? From a soul level, or whatever that is needed, then they will have this space and capacity to hold space for other people's liberation.

[00:20:00] But it's hard to hold space and capacity for something that you've never experienced yourself. So it has to be like liberation is a conscious decision, right? So if you haven't made that conscious decision, and sometimes it's conscious and it's something that you sometimes don't have a playbook for.

[00:20:19] So that makes it even more complicated. Cause you're like, okay, I know that I need these things. I know that I'm even making the choice to aim for my liberation. But like, there's no playbook on how I do that. Birthing Liberation is a starting point for that playbook.

[00:20:39] But if we can start that internal work, we just create so much more capacity for difference. Not even just sameness, but for difference. Like, oh, this person is different from me. Maybe we don't agree on this thing. But like, I have so much space and spaciousness in me because I have allowed myself to be spacious.

[00:21:00] Josie: Yeah. Wow, that's beautiful. Yeah. And I love that this affects all of us, everybody. We're so, it's like privilege doesn't equal liberation. It's like even for someone who holds a lot of privileges, doesn't necessarily mean they're liberated. It could mean the opposite. Like, we're all not benefiting from these systems. 

[00:21:28] Sabia: Privilege does not equate liberation. Because privilege a lot of times is like, you become beholden to your privilege sometimes. You become like, in order for me to maintain this privilege, I have to always stay in this certain box. 

[00:21:44] Even if this box doesn't apply to me anymore, or I'm starting to look at it different, or it's not, I wanna be kind of, I wanna spread my box out a little bigger. I can't do it because I'm gonna lose this privilege. Even when we talk about whiteness in particular of course like people don't have a choice whether they come in the world white, right? 

[00:22:03] But white people do have a choice on how they align in their whiteness. And so when they align in a certain way and they get all these doors open, right? That's great. But when they start to align in a more like community driven, anti-racist way.

[00:22:22] That that privileged box gets smaller because it's like, oh no, you're choosing to align your whiteness with this way. But that can be really scary for some people to think about. If I was to shift my identity, right? Or shift the way that people perceive me, what privileges does that take away from me?

[00:22:43] And that becomes the bigger issue. But the question also has to be with that is like, yeah, privilege may be lost, but also what will you gain? And that gaining can be literal community. But also can be gaining like integrity. Like it could be gaining these things that are, they speak to when you die, how you wanna be remembered.

[00:23:10] Like they speak to the legacy that you're building. That goes further than, oh, I was like, I had these big privileges and I could like, I don't know, get a private plane here in a second. That shit don't matter at the end. What matters is like someone being like, yo, this person had integrity. This person is gonna live in with me. This person changed my life, this person, and you know. Those are the things that matter. 

[00:23:35] Josie: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So what does a liberated person look like? 

[00:23:42] Sabia: What do they look like? I mean, obviously visually, they like, look like whatever they look like. But I would say it's not even necessarily what they look like. It's what they feel like. And I think we all have, come across a person, it don't matter your sexuality or gender, nothing. We've all come across a person where they walk in a room and you're just like, electromagnetically, like, hi.

[00:24:14] You're just like, whoa. And again, it's not about like physical attraction or any of that, right. It's a feeling that this person exudes that you're like, Hmm, yeah. I kind of want some of that. And it doesn't, they haven't had to speak a word to you. They haven't had to like to, to whatever, to like convince you.

[00:24:38] But there is a feeling that comes with someone who's liberating. So one of the things actually that me and my partner were talking about last night, cause I've been, I'm in currently in a chaplaincy class, so like being a chaplain. And that's like a great time, love it. 

[00:24:59] And it's so many things. I like talk to a lot of people who are like chaplains who are like based in reproductive justice and they like help support people who have abortions and spirituality and it's a whole thing. So anywhosies, I'm talking to my partner and last week in class, we were talking about shame, right?

[00:25:20] And we were talking about. How shame is not necessarily when someone feels like embarrassed around something that they did, they feel embarrassed about who they are. Shame is a problem with who you are. Not just the things that cause you to be embarrassed or you're like, I fell in front of the people. Ok?

[00:25:40] Yeah. I'm embarrassed. Let's not look at me for a week. But shame is like, don't look at me ever, because who I am is bringing on feelings of like unworthiness or just being fundamentally flawed. This past weekend, me and my partner like went out.

[00:26:02] I met all her friends and it was a whole little, whole little shindig. It was cute. We had a good time. And we were kind of just like reflecting on it. And she was reflecting on like also her friends, liking me and they're like, oh my gosh, your energy is just, I just love her energy and da da da.

[00:26:16] And then my partner was like, the thing that I love about you is you have no shame. And I was like, yeah. Like it's cuz that's deeper than like, you're not embarrassed to go dance crazy in front of somebody. It's like who you are, you have no shame about. And she was like, people are attracted to that.

[00:26:37] So that's why when you walk in a room, people are like, oh, this person don't hold any shame around themselves. And I tell people things, I'm like, I done had mental health struggles, I done did this, I failed at that. Maybe I wasn't a good person at this point. I could have been a better person.

[00:26:53] But I don't hold shame around that. When I think about that, it's like that's how a liberate a liberated person feels. It doesn't mean if they're perfect, it don't mean that they have a hard day, you know, they don't have hard times, or that they don't get frustrated, or they're just like happy walking around, whatever.

[00:27:12] It's not that. It's that even through their emotions, even through their process, they don't have shame. They have transparency, right? They have kindness themselves to others. They can look at something personally and also detach and look at it from a bird's eye view.

[00:27:32] I also think liberated people can do that. You know what I mean? Without taking on the responsibility of fixing as well. So I think it's all about like how a person feels more than how they look. 

[00:27:44] Josie: Yeah, absolutely. Ugh, that's so beautiful. And I'm thinking too, like how differently a person would act coming from a place of no shame versus coming from a place of shame.

[00:27:57] When you're coming from that place of shame, you have so much there that's not explored. And I feel like you would just act unconsciously and put that shame onto other people. 

[00:28:06] Sabia: For sure, exactly. Right. So it's like if you feel that and you embody that, you start to replicate that. And now you're the asshole trying to shame people for their identities, for their sexualities, for their race, for their whatever.

[00:28:21] But really the question is, what is it that you need? You are lacking something that you're probably not identifying and that is resorting in this behavior of I have to be the most privileged or the most powerful, at least make myself seem that way. That's shame. That's internalized shame turned outward. 

[00:28:45] Josie: Yeah, that makes so much sense. In your book, you encourage the reader to embody our difficult feelings. As we read about the traumatic birth story of Rena, whose story is so tragically common in our country. You encourage us to sit with our discomfort and let it move through our body.

[00:29:03] I found this practice to be incredibly profound and at first really scary. Will you explain why you want readers to do this as we read your book? 

[00:29:12] Sabia: Yeah, so everything is about feeling right, and our brains are these super wired things that, especially if you have anxiety and shit, your brain's like, I think about this way, and I say it this way, and I moved through that, and did I really feel that way?

[00:29:30] It's all this logic trying to like make its place. But one thing about our bodies is that they want none of that. They're like, you know, if you think about your body as like a machine that is like functioning off of a knowing, not functioning off of a logic, if that makes sense.

[00:29:50] So our body is using our senses, right. Our eyesight, our smell, our whatever, can let you know early on, like eh, not so much. And we all have been in that situation where you're like, something was just off. My body was just like, mm-mmm. Right? And then later on you're like, damn it.

[00:30:12] If I would've just listened to that, right? If I had just learned what that messaging was, then I would have been able to maybe move a little bit different, a little bit better, right? So we have to start being attuned to our bodies cuz the body be knowing. And I think part of it though, is a lot of us, and I think it's human nature, we wanna attune to the good feelings that our body brings, right?

[00:30:37] Like, I wanna attune the pleasure and sex, whatever the case is. And those things are good, right? But also, like everything has to be balanced, so you also need to attune to the other things, right? So you need to attune to the grief. And the sadness and the anger and how that lives in your body.

[00:30:54] Because if you're not bringing that awareness, It's going to live there and continue to stay there. Now you're gonna have, you have the health issues or you have this or you have that. So it's important for us to be able to build a capacity to feel all of our feelings and our bodies, and also know that when we do that, we build a capacity for more humanity.

[00:31:16] Build the capacity to actually get through something versus saying wait, this is uncomfortable, I need to move to the next thing. What does it feel like to just get through an emotional loop? I was angry. I let the anger hit his highest and then it came down. It's something about like feeling that even though as a person who struggled with anxiety.

[00:31:35] Sometimes my mantra when I'm feeling anxious is just like, This is also gonna come down eventually. So it teaches me to trust my body as well in those moments of like tension and anxiety and worry or or grief or whatever. Just being like, yo, my body is doing this to heal me.

[00:31:54] And I think we have to move away from like, oh, if I'm feeling a bad feeling, I'm internalizing something negative. And it's like, no, your body's telling you feel it so you can heal it. It's important for us to become more attuned to that and it's important for us to be able to see that in others as well.

[00:32:15] And to start to push that to our children. Start to push that to our communities so that we can feel a moment of anger when someone said anything and then we can actually move to the resolution. Like we don't have to be angry for the next 20 years. And like that's the things that I want people to be able to move through.

[00:32:35] Like if I can move through that on my own. That would bring my capacity to have conversations with community members, even in disagreement. I think a lot of people just wanna be held even in disagreement, whether they say it or not.

[00:32:49] So one of the things also, me and my partner were talking about like, when it comes to emotions, a lot of us have been taught that if you were to actually be in your emotion and to actually express your emotion, not in a violent way or whatever the case is. That there's love taken away from you because of you actually fully expressing that emotion. Versus saying like, oh, I'm fine or I can handle it, or whatever.

[00:33:15] I don't wanna feel that way. I wanna feel like I can do my whole thing, feel it in my body, and still know that at the end of the day, my people are still standing there with me. And I think all of that is like vulnerability to be like, oh, I'm gonna go through this thing. Are you still gonna be here? And we need more of that. I think we all need that. 

[00:33:39] Josie: Yes, yeah. That expanding our capacity to feel that discomfort and to not run away. 

[00:33:48] Sabia: Yeah just to stop holding onto that, cuz it comes out either way, right? Like when we're looking at people who are so reactive to like whatever cause it's just like, oh, I wish I would just finish out emotional loops.

[00:33:59] I wish I would just like. Cause then after the emotional loop, then we can talk about the real stuff here. But we can't even talk about the real stuff. Cause you're so stuck in your trauma response that like, we can't get to none of the real conversation. 

[00:34:13] Josie: That's totally true. 

[00:34:14] Sabia: And you don't even know what you're defending anymore. You don't know what you're defending anymore, you just def It don't even make sense. You're just saying shit out your mouth. Even when you look at like all the like, I don't know, like Trump stuff or whoever the case is, and people were like, literally they will tell them like, these are the facts.

[00:34:32] What you're saying is not true. And they're like, Nope. Cause da da. Right. They're just in fight mode. They're not finishing what they need to finish, so then we can get to a point of being grounded and being like, okay, now let's talk about what we need to talk about. 

[00:34:45] Josie: Yes, totally. I had this experience the other night and I felt like it was as a result of reading your book and having you walk me through that process. And I was feeling really angry and then I literally felt my energy or my body expand to be bigger, to hold that anger. So I didn't have to, I didn't feel like I had to like panic and let it out. 

[00:35:16] Do you know what I mean? Like, I felt like, okay, I can actually hold this. Like I can actually grow bigger to go around this anger and hold it and like sit with it and like, yeah. That was huge for me. 

[00:35:32] Sabia: And also like, what is it telling me? Right? I can, listen to the messages as to what it's telling me. And I think that's important cause our emotions do tell us things. Like our feelings, our body are, they're telling us things. But sometimes it's hard to even interpret that message when your aim is to get out of it.

[00:35:55] I can't feel this way, I have to shut it down, I have to move to the next thing. And your body's like, sis, I'm trying to tell you something. Listen, that's what I'm trying to tell you. So that next time you won't be mad about this and next time you'll not be engaged with this type of person, or next time you'll realize that this organization or place is not for you. 

[00:36:12] There's clear messages that we can learn if we build the capacity to sit and listen and to sit and listen, we have to be with. 

[00:36:22] Josie: Yep, and I think that's where the action is. Like when you can get to that other side of that emotion and then you can take action. Yeah. Which is what we need to be doing. 

[00:36:35] Sabia: But we can't ever get to the other side of it and we stay stuck in it. All we do is argue. All we do is like, be in the same cycle. Nothing gets done. Part of my inspiration for writing Birthing Liberation was just like, I wanna see true action. People get so frustrated with topics and whatever, but I'm like, not that there's anything wrong with talking, but it's so repetitive and redundant that I'm like, man, all that time we could have actually been doing something.

[00:37:09] Josie: Yep. Exactly. That's what I loved most about your book is there was lots of clear action steps and like, templates and ideas like, okay, now this is what we would do. Like let's go do it.

[00:37:24] Sabia: Yeah, please and thank you. 

[00:37:27] Josie: Yes, yes. I also thought it was so interesting how you pointed out the layers of trauma experienced by everyone involved in Rena's story. So this is one of the central stories that you tell in the book, including the white cis male doctor. And when I first read the story, of course I wasn't thinking at all about his trauma.

[00:37:47] Will you talk about how that, how multiple people's unprocessed trauma can affect a situation? 

[00:37:53] Sabia: Yes, for sure. So in the book I open with a story that is all very common, about a Black cis woman parent move through her birthing process and ultimately ending up dying in a way that could have been avoided.

[00:38:12] And like I said, it's a story of many, many Black parents. For me, one of the things I think about often is racism and its effects and its trauma. It's clear when it comes to people of color. Like very clear. Some people would say maybe not, right? It could be in denial, but like in general it's very clear. 

[00:38:35] But I often think about too, like, what is the other side of this? And through my work of like literally being in classes, talking about this work, doing things in person, when I started doing that work, I didn't necessarily expect it, but I started to see how racism showed up for white people.

[00:38:52] And it looked different. And so it wasn't that it wasn't there, it just looked different. When I realized that, I was like, huh, okay. When I was writing the book and I was writing that story, For me, it was important to name the identities of every character and also to name what they may be moving through.

[00:39:12] Because again, racism and all that, like all of it's a trauma for all of us, right. But it all comes from somewhere. So I wanted to name those pieces cause I think it's important to Yes, like uplift BIPOC folks for sure. And to keep a full holistic perspective on what it looks like to be in an experience, right.

[00:39:34] That is full of different people and different characters who are moving through different thoughts and different histories and different feelings and different, right. So it was important for me to name that because in my work as a birth worker, it is easy to just like, kind of demonize doctors, or to demonize, like this person is negative.

[00:39:54] And I'm like, don't get me wrong. Okay. Yes, some doctors, right. But also like some doulas too. I know doulas where I'm like mmm- I don't know.

[00:40:06] So I think it's just like humanizing, not giving an excuse or giving any of that. But even when I wrote the book too, I wanted it to be something that could be read by a doctor, by a nurse, by a doula, by a parent, right? And in order for that to happen, I was like, they have to see themselves reflected in this space.

[00:40:28] And it's not to give anyone an excuse, right? It's to be factual around, like people are moving through things all the time and even if you're moving through those things, this is your role and what you need to do in regard to that. Yep. So it was important for me to name all of that.

[00:40:44] Josie: Totally. I thought that was really just so profound to think about it from all of those angles. I was like, wow. I wouldn't have thought that it was so surprising to me. 

[00:40:57] Sabia: We're all here being human. Interacting with each other, trying to do our best, but we all got some things, got some things. 

[00:41:06] Josie: Yes, exactly. You described succinctly in your book how Black birthing people are usually blamed for their outcomes, and I see this all the time, like preeclampsia or gestational diabetes, for example. Instead of the medical system or the providers. But studies have now shown that these sometimes life-threatening birthing outcomes are a direct effect of a phenomenon called weathering.

[00:41:29] Will you explain that concept of weathering what it means? 

[00:41:32] Sabia: Yes, so at its simplest ways of defining it is Black people, and people of color but I'll speak to Black people right now cause I am Black. When we talk about racism, racism isn't something that you just experience once a day cuz you went to work and when someone says something like negative to you.

[00:41:55] It's also just all consuming. It's in the interactions. Like when I go outside the house, like I live near Atlanta now, so I moved out of San Diego. I was living there for three years. I moved out of San Diego. Cause I was like, I just need to see more Black people.

[00:42:13] I need to like, nervous system wise, see more Black people. I need to just, when I walk outside the door, I'm already thinking I'm Black, I'm walking outside my house. Don't know what's gonna happen today. But I was like, for my nervous system, I need to see more Black and brown people so that my nervous system and my body can feel a bit safer.

[00:42:35] So there's like a thing that Black people have to think about. You have to think about, you know, watching TV imagery. Things that come across the tv. You have to think about the news, the crime, the this, the that. You have to think about the inequities and the systems that you work in, the place that you educate yourself, the people where you get your healthcare access.

[00:42:57] You have to think about, depending on what neighborhood you are living in, are you living in a food desert? Do you have quality, affordable food in your area? You have to think about police, who's the police in your area? What's going on? What's the vibe? You know what I'm saying? 

[00:43:14] And these are all, and these are things you just think about for yourself. That's not including your children, your family, your friends, your community. Right. So we think about that, right? Microaggressions, explicit racism, implicit racism. Like all these things, there is a weathering because your body is functioning on cortisol at a high level all the time.

[00:43:38] Like consistently, there's a level of cortisol going through your body, and when you have a stress hormones and stress on your body 24/7, it impacts the literal functioning of your body. So your endocrine system and your cardiovascular system, and all these things, like when we talk about Black people having heart attacks at young ages, there's a reason for that.

[00:44:02] When we talk about these things, there is a weathering that is happening to the body at a very early age. And it's not just like when you become an adult either. There's like the book Push Out, talking about kids being, Black girls being criminalized soon as they enter the school system at five years old.

[00:44:21] So this is not like just something that's like, oh, when you become an adult and you start working and you see this and you see that. It's like, no, it's impacting our kids. And even as a newborn, you as a Black person, you have a higher chance of dying in your first year of life as a newborn.

[00:44:37] So it's like soon as you come out the womb, there's some level of stress that's being that's being put on your body. And you're supposed to just live life. 

[00:44:50] Josie: Yeah, that makes so much sense. Thank you for explaining that. I love that you describe in your book the difference between culturally competent versus culturally humble healthcare.

[00:45:00] I just love that concept, that term. Will you explain the difference between these two concepts and which one we want to aspire to as healthcare providers and community workers? 

[00:45:10] Sabia: Yes, so cultural competence is kind of like a first step, if you will. But cultural competence, the big thing about it is that it's like an end point. It's like, oh, you've been around Black people, you now know how their culture operates, right? And it's like, okay. And that's when you get people that come to you like, oh yeah, you're celebrating Kwanzaa, and you're like, maybe I'm not? 

[00:45:36] I dunno, right? You know, you're just like, okay? Umm, not quite? So that's like a cultural competence kind of question. Like, you're celebrating Kwanzaa, what are you doing? Because you're Black, and so that clearly has to be your thing. And so cultural humility, it says like, this, this thing is always ongoing.

[00:45:59] It also says like, people are not monolithic. So even if you are in relationship with a Black community, I don't mean if they're the same as other Black community, and the other Black community. So to take that first example, instead of saying like, you're gonna celebrate Kwanzaa, what are you doing?

[00:46:17] It would be like, what holidays do you celebrate? So it's just that simple to be humble of being like, maybe I do have some information. Maybe I've learned some things, right? But also I'm just not gonna assume that this is what it is, because that's the Black thing to do. So it's important to come with that openness, because once we start to be, to think that we're culturally competent, we start to like really close our lens, our glasses, right?

[00:46:45] We can't see shit because we're like, oh, this person does this, this person does that. There's assumptions, right? Even in healthcare, there's assumptions. So like, I actually was thinking about this other day, a couple years ago, because I have fibromyalgia, I have all these pain conditions. And I had went to like like holistic practitioner or whoever, and she was like, oh, I'm gonna test you for Lyme disease.

[00:47:10] She was like, cause I haven't been to a neurologist, I've been to a whole bunch of things, you know? And she was like, have anybody ever tested you for Lyme disease? And I was like, no, no, not ever. And I've been tested for a bunch of things. And so she was like, okay. So we did the Lyme disease test and it came back positive.

[00:47:28] Like I had a super tick, okay. I had all different types of, it was just a mess. So any disease, I really thought about that cuz I was like, yo, not one time did someone say, Hey, do you think you could have been bit by a tick? Did you go camping? Did you? Those kinda like outdoorsy questions.

[00:47:49] And I'm pretty sure it's cause I'm Black and I'm always lived in like a city. And I was like, so I think the assumption has been like, she wouldn't, there's no reason to test her for Lyme disease. But that's like cultural competent thinking around like, I'm a monolith, I'm Black, I live in a city, I don't go camping, I don't do things in nature cause I'm a city girl, whatever case is.

[00:48:10] Versus being like culturally humble, which is like, let's open up this question because I don't know who you are. Did you go camping? Did you whatever. And I'm like, actually I do love spending time in nature. Let's get you tested for Lyme and came back positive.

[00:48:27] Josie: Oh wow. Yeah. Exactly. What a difference those two things are. 

[00:48:32] Sabia: And literally lifesaving. 

[00:48:34] Josie: Yes. Literally lifesaving. 

[00:48:37] Sabia: If we just like stop thinking about people as a monolith. And just be like, okay, I see this identity in my, I'm naturally as a human, I'm gonna have some type of judgment around whatever identity I see.

[00:48:48] But that doesn't mean that this is like the all knowing, right? Like I just have to ask questions and I would ask to anybody else. Because people are individuals at the end of the day. 

[00:49:02] Josie: Yeah. Most, a lot of folks stop at culturally competent healthcare. But we need to keep going to culturally humble.

[00:49:12] Sabia: And really ask yourself, like, what do I ask one client and don't ask the other? Why do I ask them that, and not ask the other? Or why do I, I remember like one, I forgot who I was talking to, one of my doula friends, and they were like, they were in the birth room, but one of their clients, the birth room clients in their room were Black.

[00:49:34] And then next door was like a white patient, whatever, having their baby. And every time the nurse would come into the Black people's room, She was white, she'd be like, Hey, girl, da da da da. Like trying to like, do that whole thing. And everybody's like, we don't even talk like that.

[00:49:53] But again, culturally competent, these assumptions, this monolithic view versus like culturally humility, I'm just going to treat everyone the same, ask the same questions, and see who you are beyond what I see in front of my face. 

[00:50:09] Josie: Right. Exactly. Ugh. Yeah. That's so cringy. Oh god. 

[00:50:18] Yeah, yeah, exactly. Just treat everyone the same, and then explore who each individual is. And without assumptions. Question your assumptions, exactly. 

[00:50:30] Changing systems feels so daunting, but as you point out in your book, systems are just communities of people. I loved that. I underlined it, like can starred it.

[00:50:38] I was like, wow. That's so true, that's so true. What are some steps that we can take to make systemic changes to center the most marginalized among us and how does that approach benefit everyone? 

[00:50:50] Sabia: Yeah. A lot of it starts from education, which is why like in the book I go into the history of reproductive health, because I think a lot of times we see things that we don't like to see and don't wanna see, and we do things that have already been done.

[00:51:11] And like, we don't go and say like, what has been done or what, what can I learn from this? So make sure we're not just doing the same thing over and over, just new iterations of it. History is really important, knowing where you came from to know where we are now and why those things exist.

[00:51:27] I think the next thing that we, want to aim to do is to really diversify our community. And what I mean by that is, of course, like I'm down with my people, you get what I'm saying? And, in the last few years I've diversified my community in different spaces. So I do talk to the white cis man who's privileged and well off.

[00:51:52] I do talk to, a person who's quote unquote low income and I talk to these different people because to really have a wide perspective you have to be able to talk to different people. And it's things that I learn from people who are here, there, and everywhere. And it's not about their education.

[00:52:09] They got these degrees. Like it's not about that. It's like people have different information that helped me put pieces together so that I can get beyond just my one view of what needs to happen. And they also empower me with information I didn't know. I'm like, oh, this thing could be really helpful to this thing over here.

[00:52:28] Another thing that we have to kind of be, we have to work on being in collaboration authentically. And what I mean by that is everyone, there's 10 billion issues right now. Like for example, I mean, it's just, it is just 10 billion issues. But in this current moment, my work is always dedicated to like Black perinatal health disparities.

[00:52:57] And I know at this current moment I need to be talking about trans rights. I'm not a trans person, but it don't take much to see that people are trying to fuck up their lives. That doesn't mean that my main issues or that something that's connected to me isn't important.

[00:53:18] But I can see when something needs a little boost and some support, and it doesn't mean that, especially cuz I'm not connect, like I don't identify that way. It's even more reason why I should be over there. So I think like we have to like come together in collaboration and say like, yo, what is needed right now?

[00:53:39] What do we consistently keep working on? What does that consistent work look on? But also what needs that push? Right now, what needs that SOS right now? And like that to me is really community being like, I'm not a trans person, but I'm not blind. I see right now that there's a genocide happening with y'all and so what you need me to do? 

[00:54:01] Because at the end of the day when trans people are impacted in their rights around their bodily autonomy and their healthcare and their whatever. That means that that same shit could happen to me. Once we start in one section of being like push pushing people back, once that section is gone, we come into the next one. We have to be able to see that interconnection. Even with the things that maybe are not directly connected to our identities.

[00:54:33] Josie: Totally. And if we can work that out for the most marginalized, then that has that ripple effect to everyone else. 

[00:54:44] Sabia: Yes. The wins and the losses. Like when we win, the most marginalized, it is a benefit to everyone. When we lose, it's also a loss to everyone. But it doesn't ever, doesn't not impact just cuz you're not in that group. It's gonna impact you at some point. 

[00:55:03] Josie: Exactly. Do you have any advice for queer, trans or non-binary BIPGM or BIPOC who are currently, or who will soon navigate the reproductive healthcare system on their fertility journey?

[00:55:16] Sabia: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. One, do your research. Do your research. Don't feel afraid to call many fertility clinics and ask many questions about, Hey, how's this going? What do you do about this, blah, blah, blah. Do that research. Be clear about what's important to you. 

[00:55:40] Like is it clear? Is it most important that your physician is someone who has a similar identity to you? Or is it more important that this place is local and they have the services, right? Do you mind being in a space where you might have to provide some education? Or do you wanna be in a space where they know everything and you don't have to provide any education?

[00:55:59] Where is this clinic located? Is that somewhere where you wanna be? Does it feel safe to walk outside of that clinic? Right, right. Or you gonna feel safe inside of the clinic? Are you gonna be like the only person that's not binary in this place? So just thinking about like those kind of things, and being clear about what that looks like for you.

[00:56:19] The next thing I would say is like really aiming in your education process to look for community, whether it is a Facebook group or just something that you can, like a Reddit group. Just something that you're like, okay, I can go to this place and ask a question or I can read, cause I think sometimes when you're moving through it can feel so isolating.

[00:56:36] Like, I'm the only one moving through this. Especially if your immediate family is not like of your identities and not of your experience. It can feel very isolating. So even if it's a place where you can read like, oh, other people are going through this too, or here's a place where I can ask a question or like, anything like that I think is super helpful.

[00:56:52] And then, and I'll also suggest this book, Baby Making for Everybody. By Ray and Marea. So yeah. Family Building and Fertility. 

[00:57:07] Josie: Yes. I just had those two on the podcast. So if y'all haven't heard your episode, go back and listen. It's a few episodes ago. 

[00:57:14] Sabia: Yes. So I also would suggest that.

[00:57:17] Josie: Nice. Yeah, that's a great one. 

[00:57:20] Sabia: And the other thing I would say too, last but not least,d o your research on the financial pieces. Know. Know what you may be looking forward to, know your options. Because that can really lead you to know like what you wanna really do, versus what you thought you wanted to do.

[00:57:43] And have a limit too. Like, not for nothing. I've seen people like go in a lot of debt over a family building, and not that I think that's a bad thing, but I do think that there can be, sometimes when you go over a certain limit, whatever that limit is for you, it can become like, I enjoy my family, but I'm always thinking about this debt.

[00:58:04] So yeah, be clear about what is your financial limits. At what point do we shift to something else? At what point do we, what point do we pause and build up some more resource? Things like that. Because I think for anybody, any parent. It kind of could be like, oh, I, I love this baby and I have a hundred thousand dollars in debt, and like, what the fuck? 

[00:58:25] Josie: Yeah. Such a good point. Yeah, that's a huge piece of it. Also, I think I spoke over you while you were reading the title of that book. Will you read it one more time? 

[00:58:34] Sabia: Oh yeah, Baby Making for Everybody, Family Building and Fertility for LGBTQ Plus and Solo Parents. 

[00:58:41] Josie: Wonderful. And it's by Ray Rachlin and Marea Goodman. Yay. 

[00:58:47] So lastly, how can people find you, support, you buy all your things, if you have any, you know, upcoming events, offerings, anything? 

[00:58:56] Sabia: Yes. So the easiest way to find all that is going on with me is to go to my website, sabiawade.com. On there, you'll like get a popup to join my substack, which is Birth Neoterist, newsletter, where I post weekly, like different written format, meditations, affirmations, community check-ins, whatever is going on in my worlds other like mini podcasts on there with different people.

[00:59:29] And then, yeah, I mean you can always follow my Instagram @sabiawade, anything that pops up as sabia wade and you wanna follow it, please feel free. But I would say my newsletter is like the best way to be like really integrated into what's going on with me. 

[00:59:45] Josie: Okay. Oh, that sounds amazing. I will be going to sign up for that right now as soon as we hop off.

[00:59:49] Sabia: Yeah, it's a fun time. 

[00:59:53] Josie: Yeah, it sounds amazing. So dynamic. And for anyone who has not checked out your book yet, please go buy Sabia's book. It is incredible. 

[01:00:01] Sabia: And it's available everywhere, and it's an audio as well. 

[01:00:06] Josie: Oh, nice. Did you do the audio? 

[01:00:08] Sabia: I did not, I had a very lovely narrator named Tamika who did it.

[01:00:14] And we thank her for her work. Recording a book can be a lot, so I'm like, maybe the next one, maybe the next one, but yeah, so it's available in audio as well. 

[01:00:25] Josie: Oh, great. Okay. That's good to know. Cool. All right, well I've kept you long enough. Thank you so much, Sabia, for being here today, I learned so much as I always do from you and I'm just so grateful to have you here. Yeah, thank you. 

[01:00:38] Sabia: Thank you for having me. 

[01:00:41] Josie: Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility Podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz.

[01:00:58] If you like the show and want to hear more, tap subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, and please leave us a review. It really truly helps. The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez Boucher, and produced by Rozarie Productions with original music by Jen Korte.

All content offered through The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is created for informational purposes only, it is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.