Episode 57 - Montse Olmos: How Water and Fire Affect our Health and Fertility

Montse (she/her/ella) is a proud Nahuatl and Totonaca full spectrum doula, herbalist, and educator who teaches Indigenous Mexican healing knowledge and traditions. This conversation touches upon how elements of life affect our fertility, specifically the interaction between Water and Fire. Montse also shares about traditional nourishment, going back to basics, and gives advice to folks who are trying to increase their fertility.

[ID: A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 57: Montse Olmos @mujer_dela_tierra and Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier @intersectionalfertility.]

Follow Montse on Instagram and join Community Herbalism here.

Content Warning: This episode mentions pregnancy loss and abortion.

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.

[00:00:00] Josie: I am Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our Whole Selves.

[00:00:32] Hello, friend. I am checking in with you today before we get started on our episode, to remind you that my merch store is still open and you've still got time to get your goodies before Pride month. Which I can't believe is really soon, now it's about a week away. Be sure to head over to intersectionalfertility.com and click on shop, and that will take you to my merch store, where you can see these gorgeous designs designed by the design team that I work with called Don't Be Jealous Studio, an incredible queer owned and BIPOC owned design team.

[00:01:09] And you'll see there's three different designs and two different messages. So one of them, Is "Queer Families are the Future" with a beautiful illustration. The other design is "Queer Families are the Future" without an illustration. And then the third design has a message that says "Degender Reproductive Health."

[00:01:31] So some really good messaging for Pride Month this year to represent, and we all know of course, right, that pride month is every month, all year. But it is nice to get some new ways to represent our queerness and our values, and the messages we wanna portray and spread. So head on over to intersectionalfertility.com and click on shop.

[00:01:56] And also when you buy any merch from my store, you directly support me and the work that I'm doing in creating this podcast and bringing these episodes to you. So I really truly thank you for doing that, and I really appreciate that support so that I can continue doing this work of creating liberatory and intersectional spaces for all of us to think about and talk about fertility.

[00:02:23] So thank you so much. I appreciate you, and I hope you enjoy today's episode. It's such a good one with Montse. She's just incredible, I can't wait for you to hear it. All right, friend. I will talk to you again soon.

[00:02:36] Montse Olmos was born in Mexico City and grew up in the states of Nuevo León and Tamaulipas. She comes from a mixed lineage and is a third generation migrant across state and national colonial borders. She proudly identifies as Totonaca, maternal lineage from Veracruz, and Nahuatl, Maternal lineage from Guanajuato. 

[00:03:09] Montse began her formal doula studies at Ancient Song Doula Services in Brooklyn, but by ancestral inheritance Montse is a full spectrum birth companion, and the granddaughter of traditional midwives and healers. She created the first of its kind online course titled Cultural Appropriation and Rebozo Work, which addresses the decolonial history of this sacred textile and connects it to anti-racism education. 

[00:03:38] Montse is also an international speaker on Indigenous sovereignty and autonomy, as well as issues such as extractivism and the commodification of Indigenous knowledge and traditions. She has presented her work at the National Midwifery Institute, the Educated Birth, the SIAParto Conference in Brazil, ICEA, and Utrecht University in the Netherlands, to name a few. Montse is also an abortion companion, and herbalism studen, and she approaches the sacred work from an indigenous and decolonial perspective.

[00:04:15] When she's not investing her time as a birth worker and educator, montse cultivates corn, beans, squash, and medicinal herbs along with her family. She honors the intersection between agriculture and midwifery that runs in her maternal lineage, because both practices are focused on cultivating life and trusting the unseen. 

[00:04:37] Woo. What a bio Montse. That's incredible. Incredible. 

[00:04:43] Montse: I didn't know if you wanted the short one or the long one. So I just sent you everything.

[00:04:47] Josie: I like the long one. Yeah, I like the long one. Oh, welcome to the podcast. 

[00:04:55] Montse: Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. 

[00:04:58] Josie: I'm so honored to have you. 

[00:04:59] Montse: I've been listening to some of the episodes and I really like it. I've been enjoying the podcast. 

[00:05:05] Josie: Oh, thank you so much. That means so much to me. Well, you have been an incredible teacher of mine and I just feel so honored to have you here on the podcast today. I'm really excited for this conversation. Before we get started, would you like to share your pronouns and where you're joining us from today?

[00:05:26] Montse: Yes. My pronouns are she and her, ella. And I live in the south of Puebla, Southern Puebla. It's a community called San Jose Tetla. This is where my husband is from, my partner, and we live here since three years ago. 

[00:05:46] Josie: Nice. So will you kind of start us off and share your story that led you to do the work that you do today in community herbalism, reproductive justice and agriculture, and how they're all connected?

[00:06:00] Montse: Yes. It started when I was little, really, since I was a little girl. I grew up with my great grandparents and grandparents. I didn't really grow up with my parents. And so they took care of me. The elder elders in my family took care of me and a lot of tías and tíos. So I would go back and forth in the summers and the winters.

[00:06:28] And stay with different family members. And my whole family from, on my mom's side, they all, they all come from El Campo, like they were agricultores and they would cultivate la milpa, which is corn, beans, squash, but also cantaloupe, like a, a green cantaloupe that's like native to our area.

[00:06:52] A lot of different kinds of beans and los palas, and they would have a lot of cattle. I feel like I inherit that through my mom's side. I don't really know much about my father's side cause I didn't grow up with him. So I don't really know much about his, you know, family and, and story. 

[00:07:09] But my grandmother, my maternal grandmother, she's a traditional healer. And she reads the cards and she uses herbs and cebadas just on the regular, right. And then my grandpa's mother, so my great-grandmother through him, she was a midwife and she was also a traditional healer and sanadora. So, and then everyone before them, like all the women before them, that's what they would do.

[00:07:37] They would help catch babies in their communities and heal each other and themselves with herbs. I don't really have like the experience of being in the hospital a lot as a child or anything like that. It was always through like our home remedies. And when I decided to have a family to have my first baby, it wasn't really a question for me whether it was gonna be born in the hospital or at home. 

[00:08:03] It just felt like the natural or the default decision would be to just have it at home. I came into it in a very natural way. Like I didn't really have to struggle with like deciding and investigating and all that. It was just a very normal thing for me to have the baby at home. Both of my daughters have been born at home and then after that, when I decided to have a family, that's really when this whole world of birth work and herbalism and activism really opened up for me, you know?

[00:08:39] I feel like when you become a parent, you go through this transformation. And so many things open up and you start realizing a lot of other realities out there. And that's really what happened to me, like after I had my first baby I also had friends that were doulas and birth workers, so I definitely had a lot of influence through there. 

[00:09:00] And I began studying this formally at an organization called Ancient Song Doula Services in Brooklyn, and I'm so thankful for that experience and I'm still very like proud to say that that I learned with Chanel Porchia and Patricia Thomas, who are two really powerful black women that are doing amazing work, not just in Brooklyn, but really nationally.

[00:09:24] Because recently Chanel was on the news with the vice president talking about maternal mortality crisis. And, and that's where I learned, that's where I, how I stepped into this work, like from a very strong, clear political perspective that a lot of this work is not just about holding space for something beautiful as birth is, but also it's about preservation for our communities and it's about resurgence of a lot of our traditions and how it's definitely impacted by, you know, racism and all of these political things.

[00:09:59] So that was the way that I was introduced into birth work. 

[00:10:04] Josie: Wow. That's incredible. That's so cool. Yeah. Yeah. I love how political birth work is. I love it. 

[00:10:14] Montse: Yeah, definitely. And you know, from there other things started opening up, like you realized that when you're holding space for birth, herbs will come in, right?

[00:10:26] Because people will ask for that. They will ask to receive herbal medicine instead of like pharmaceuticals. So then it was a process for me also that I had to learn how to share this with folks who were not necessarily familiar with herbal medicine or didn't come from the same background as I did.

[00:10:45] And doing it in the context of the US, which is so different. Everything in the US, everything is about liability and protecting yourself. You know, all these things. There's a lot of legality around that. And here in Mexico it's very different. That's not really a conversation that we have.

[00:11:03] It's like everybody knows home remedies in some level. In some way or form. And it's really natural or really normal for you to just bring herbal medicine to a birth right. Or like give someone a tecito, or a tintura, or un emplasto, like different forms of herbal medicine. And so, That was also quite the experience, right?

[00:11:26] Learning how to navigate that. This medicine that I carry within my family in that context. But also abortion work also opened up, right? Because then people started asking for that kind of support. And then I went through my own experience having abortions. And so that opened up a whole other world of holding space specifically for people that wanted to release their pregnancies. 

[00:11:51] And so, yeah, it all happened in a very organic way, and I feel like it was always cued by my own life experiences, right? As you start living certain things, then you gain the experience to start supporting others in the same situations. 

[00:12:08] Josie: What I love about traditional Mexican indigenous medicine is it's so much more accessible. It seems more accessible in general. And yeah, the US really tries to make things inaccessible. 

[00:12:24] Montse: Yeah, there's a lot of fear. There's a lot of fear that is infused into everything that has to do with they call it alternative medicine, they call it natural medicine. I really do think that there's a difference, though. I really do think, like, I never say like I practice natural medicine or alternative medicine because for us, for Indigenous peoples, from peoples that come from rural settings, from situations of poverty like there's no alternative. 

[00:12:54] This is not the alternative, it's what you go to, right? I also think there's a difference between when we say Indigenous medicine and natural medicine, like in the US they have a lot of this idea of natural medicine and alternative medicine because it's the alternative to the conventional.

[00:13:11] But when you talk about Indigenous medicine, it's really like very specific to each community, right? We all have different ways of approaching how we make medicine and how we name plants, and the relationships that we have with these plants. It changes from, it really does change from community to community, even within the same region or within the same state. 

[00:13:36] And it's very much tied to spiritual practices, to the agricultural calendar. So it's a lot more complex than just natural medicine, which, you know, is a different concept. It's such a different environment over there, you know, and I say that you know, because I had the experience of being there for almost 15 years as undocumented migrant, doing this work, doing birth work and herbalism and abortion support.

[00:14:06] But always having the memories and the roots very clear, right? That I came from over here and that we had a different way of doing things and always finding a way to stay loyal to that, but also to make it accessible for folks in the US. Especially for other undocumented migrants that were looking for that kind of support.

[00:14:27] And then coming back home to do the same, to continue this work just felt like a little bit of like relief. That I don't have to be as like on alert all the time. 

[00:14:39] Josie: Totally. Yeah. So that's so interesting. So even, not even like saying natural medicine, like that's such a broad term, but even just saying Indigenous medicine is also too broad. Cause it's like, well, which region? 

[00:14:53] Montse: Which one? Yeah, which one? I think we use it as an umbrella term. We use it as this, like generalization or as this umbrella term. But before we are Indigenous. We are Totonaca, we are Nahuatl, we are Ñuu Savi, you know, there's every, every community has their own way of calling themselves. 

[00:15:15] And it is, of course, always best to name the medicine specifically where it comes from. Right? I think we just say Indigenous as this umbrella term. 

[00:15:25] Josie: I love that. So the main thing I'd like to talk about today, one of the main things are the elements of fire and water.

[00:15:34] I focus a lot on the elements and the work that I do mostly through the lens of Chinese medicine. And I have loved learning about the elements from you through the lens of Indigenous Mexican healing through your lineages. And two of the elements that have a lot to do with fertility in Chinese medicine are fire and water and their relationship to each other.

[00:15:57] Will you share about the significance of fire and water in Indigenous Mexican medicine and their relationship to each other? Maybe we could start with one or the other. And then kind of talk about how they relate. 

[00:16:10] Montse: Yes. So I guess a good way to start this so that it's, it's easily comprehensible would be to say that fire and water are these two elements of life, but they manifest themselves in so many different ways, right?

[00:16:26] When we say fire, we think of like a burning fire, right? Like you have a, un fogón with the wood and it's burning. And you see the fire that is just one manifestation of fire. It's one way that we can experience it and it's one way in which fire happens in the world. But fire has so many qualities to it and so many other ways in which it manifests.

[00:16:52] So for example, if you think of the warmth, in a body that is alive, right? Everyone, every body that is alive has some level of warmth to it, and you can perceive that when you touch that body, right? That is also a manifestation of fire. When you think of the warmth that exists on earth. Right on the surface, la tlipac is what we call it.

[00:17:18] La tlipac is like the surface of the earth where we walk, where people walk. So that's another manifestation of fire because there's warmth there, right? If we talk about like the underground or the underworld, right beneath the soil, we consider that to be cooling, to be a cold place, to be frío. When we talk about up there in the sky and all these different layers that the atmosphere has, we also consider it to be frío, to be cooling, to be a cold place.

[00:17:49] When you think of the warmth that is in a home, right? When you step into a home that feels cozy and it feels comfortable, and you see that people take care of that home and they tend to it, and it's clean and it's beautiful, that that is also a manifestation of fire. There's warmth there when your libido is activated, and when you feel sexually attracted to someone or you feel horny, right?

[00:18:14] Like you want to have sex, that is also a manifestation of fire, so, right? Fire shows up in all these different ways in our lives and in the world, in the natural world, and within our bodies. We have like a very structured way of looking at the body and the way that fire shows up. 

[00:18:32] And I feel like this is actually very similar to Chinese medicine. And that's something that I love about like traditional Mexican medicine and Chinese medicine because. We do overlap on many things and we do see things similarly in, you know, many ways. 

[00:18:49] So for us here in Mexico, since before the invasion, you know, since pre-colonial times, there was a very well-structured and complex and deep, profound system of medicine that explained the body in each and every organ and body part. And so we have organs in our body that are meant to be warmth. They should keep their warmth. And when they become too cold, you start having health issues.

[00:19:21] We have parts of our body that are meant to be neutral all the time. Not too cold, not too hot. And there's almost no part of the body that is meant to be cold. Because too much coldness in the body usually means that there is some sort of imbalance and it usually will make space for illness. So for example, the feet and the hands.

[00:19:42] We consider that to be neutral. They shouldn't be too hot or too cold because then they're signaling you that there is something happening. The stomach and the womb area are meant to be warmth all the time. They're meant to have warmth, because without that warmth, you don't have proper digestion.

[00:20:02] You don't have proper blood circulation. The bladder is one that should be neutral. Because when you have too much heat in the bladder, then it becomes uncomfortable. When you have too much coldness in the bladder, that there's also an imbalance there. So every single part of our bodies, has temperature, right?

[00:20:24] An ideal temperature. And so when you go to a traditional healer, a lot of the times, that's the first thing that they will notice, right? If you have fríaldale, if you have coldness, if you have too much calor, too much warmth, they look at the tone in your skin, right? They look at the tone in your eyes, the color of your eyes, the tone right here in the inside of the eye, right?

[00:20:46] Yes. It looks. Red or if it looked white. Right. So there's all these things that we observe. 

[00:20:53] Josie: That skin under the eyelid. Yeah. Sorry to interrupt you for people who can't see. Yeah. 

[00:20:58] Montse: Yeah, yeah, totally. No worries. So I think that, you know, fire as being one of the ancestral elements, right? One of the, we say that it's one of the first spirits.

[00:21:10] That ever existed, you know, since the beginning of time Fire was there. We really do respect these temperatures and we really do take it very serious when it comes to our self-care and our collective medicine, our collective understanding of wellness and illness. We really do respect a lot, the fire element and how it shows up in the body and what it tells us.

[00:21:36] Because we know that fire being such an ancient spirit, it's really wise and it has a place and a way of being in harmony with us. And when we are not in harmony with that fire, it's like all of these other symptoms and illnesses come as a result from that. So there's, you know, we can talk about fire on a physical level.

[00:22:03] You know, when it comes to the body, but then there's also fire on a collective energetic level. And I was talking about this recently in my social media platform on Instagram. How as a society we're also as society that has too much fire. And that like, Because we're constantly on that stress of consuming and working and producing and go, go, go.

[00:22:29] You know, the daily hustle, the daily grind, we are literally burning out. So many of us are burned out because there's combustion right there at the center of our society. But at the same time, having too much fire as a society doesn't mean that we actually know how to communicate with fire or that we actually sit with fire.

[00:22:49] Right, right. Because the beautiful thing about fire. As an element is that when we do take the time to sit in front of it and pray with it and talk to it and be in that communication, fire is like a portal to the ancestors, right? Fire is the element that connects us to spirit, that connects us to the ancestors, and that allows for that communication.

[00:23:13] There is many ceremonies that we have in Nahuatl tradition, in Totonaca tradition, and probably most indigenous peoples of this continent and the world have some sort of ceremony or ritual around fire. Right? And in those ceremonies, usually it's like we sit in a circle, the fire is at the center, there's offerings, ofrendas, that we give, there's prayers that we say, songs that we share. 

[00:23:41] And there's this whole communion around the fire, and it's a way of staying in balance with fire, right? Staying in communication with fire. I know for example, in Totonaca tradition, when you don't behave the right way around fire or you disrespect fire, there is illnesses that you get.

[00:24:00] And so when you go to the traditional healer, a lot of the times they'll tell you like, oh, well this is something that has to do with fire. We have to go and make amends. We have to go make peace with it, right? So then they take you right in front of a fire and they do the whole healing or doctoring right there in front of the fire.

[00:24:19] The same thing happens with water, right? The same thing that I just spoke about with fire. We can apply all of that to water, right? Water being, being such an ancestral spirit, such a wise spirit, she shows up in many ways in our body, right? So a long time ago through a friend in ceremony, I learned about, I heard about the 52 waters in our bodies, and I thought that was really interesting.

[00:24:45] When you start thinking of, you know, what are these 52 waters? You start going through all of the different bodily fluids that the body produces and that are basically made of water. And you start realizing that yeah, water really is present in our bodies. It's not the same to say, Oh, we're made up of 70% water, or, you know, most of our bodies are water.

[00:25:07] No, but when you start actually breaking it down and seeing how, you know, there's many more bodily fluids than just urine and sweat and menstruation. There's like so much more, right? You start seeing how present there really is in the body, water is such a beautiful element, I think, because it's truly like the essence of this planet and the essence of ourselves, right?

[00:25:32] It's something that. We could just not exist without it. And she's so gentle and so wise and so loving. But at the same time, we have really been as, as humanity collectively, we have been very abusive with her and we have been very disrespectful. And it's almost like this reflection of, you know, when you disrespect the mother, when you don't value the mother and you like become abusive to her, I feel like.

[00:26:00] That's the same thing that's happening, you know, with the planet, with the earth, and with all the elements. We have become so abusive towards them and so disrespectful. And I say that because for us, respect is such an important thing, right? When you are in that constant balance and communication and in reciprocity, that is respect.

[00:26:20] When, like you give me, I give you, you give me, I give you, it's like the constant energy exchange, that is respect. Because then, then we're saying, okay, I value you. I see you, I see what you do for me, and it's so important that I also give you some of me, right? Water has become such a big conversation in the birth community.

[00:26:41] Because we are coming to a realization of how sacred water is, right? If we truly want to have this balance and this relationship with our communities, with our children, with the world, that also includes water. Because water helps us flow, it helps us speak, it helps us communicate.

[00:27:05] It is also a portal to spirit world. There's a lot of healing ceremonies that happen around water. There's a lot of prayers that we do around water, and we, through birth, we realize how life begins in the water. And how our babies are in that, those very first sacred waters. Where they're growing and developing.

[00:27:28] And so as a birth worker, I feel like we, we need to have that connection with water and we need to have that awareness when it comes to water because we are working with that element constantly. We are attending births, you're holding space for people and they're crying and they're releasing when you're in the postpartum, guiding them through all of their body changes, talking about, you know, discharge and lochia and all these things.

[00:27:55] It's like we're constantly working with water right there. And when it comes to our bodies, a lot of the things that I saw in the US was like pregnant people being dehydrated, right? And then going to the hospital and them, doctors telling them like, well, you don't have any more amniotic fluid, or, all this cramping is happening, or there's preeclampsia, or this, all these other things.

[00:28:25] And when I would start really looking at what was happening with this person, in my perspective, I was like, this person needs water. This person is dehydrated, this person really needs like some deep nourishment and hydration to their bodies. And it's such a basic thing, but like they don't talk to you about that in the hospital.

[00:28:44] They don't tell you like how important, it's how important it's for you to have good quality access to clean water and how important it is to nourish your body in the most elemental ways so that you avoid all these other things. One of the beautiful things about traditional indigenous medicine is that a lot of what we do is preventive medicine.

[00:29:06] A lot of what we do is to prevent. And I don't say this, actually, my grandmother says this. My grandmother says how she really does prefer traditional midwives because she feels like everything that they do is preventive medicine. And she told me this when I asked her, like her thoughts on midwifery, and she knows the work that I do, and she's very supportive.

[00:29:30] And she said, well, I really do think that traditional midwives is where it's at, because every single thing that they do to care for you, every recommendation, everything is meant to prevent other things from happening. Right. And she's like the difference from that to the hospital system is that you get there when you have an emergency and that's what they know.

[00:29:54] They know how to handle emergencies, but why do we need to get there? Why we even need to get to that point. And so yeah. A lot of our traditional medicine at being preventive medicine recognizes. All of these elements that are alive within us, it recognizes fire. And the way that fire shows up and it recognizes water and the way that water shows up when we move into herbalism.

[00:30:19] A really good yerbera, so a traditional yerbera and traditional herbalist before they even make any recommendation to you as far as like what herbs to take or anything like that. They look at fire and water in your body, right? So where, where do we have too much heat? Where do we need more heat? Because also if you think of having too much heat in the body, it's like when you have too much heat, there's irritation, right?

[00:30:47] Fire comes with irritation in the body. Also fire tends to dry things up. So when you have too much heat in any given area of the body, it will dry up the tissues, right? So your tissues will become emaciated and dry and tight. So it usually comes with tightness and some sort of irritation. But also what happens if you have too much water?

[00:31:11] Too much water in any giving area of the body will bring dampness. It will become damp and it will become overly loose. And you'll have an accumulation of mucus. And those tissues will be overly loose when they need to have tone. So, A good yerbera will look at all of these things in your body, and based on that it will say, okay, we need to work with this herb that will help you bring some coolness so that we can balance out this axis of fire.

[00:31:46] Or we need to work with this herb that will help dry up the dampness, and give tone to the tissues. And Chinese medicine also acknowledges all of this. So that's where I say there's a lot of overlap. 

[00:31:58] Josie: Yeah, totally. I know as you were speaking, I was thinking. This is so interesting because a lot of times I'll explain to my patients the aspects of yin and yang and how when there's too much yang, you know, things get dry or too hot and all this, and then when there's too much, so actually, so we need to increase the yin to balance out that yang, because that that yin is moistening and cooling and you know, so it's like, They actually work together in a really symbiotic way. 

[00:32:34] Montse: Right? Yeah. And you know, when you were explaining that, it made me remember we have this term in Nahuatl, it's called atlachinolli and so atlachinolli speaks about this marriage or this connection between water and fire.

[00:32:53] And even just the part, the word tchinolli is like, That tschh sound that you have there comes from that sound that we hear when water and fire come together, that that happens. And atlachinolli talks about the beginning of times, right? Like the big bang when like these elements met, right. The big explosions and the big impacts. 

[00:33:19] And when that very first moment when water and fire came together and how that gave way to life. How that warmth and that water gave way to the creation of life in the water. But also with that warmth. And so I feel like at shows up in so many ways in life.

[00:33:40] And at is also a reminder that you can't have too much fire and you can't have too much water. They both have an important place and they need to be always walking equal. And I think that right there is a very foundational lesson about health and wellness and wellbeing when it comes to our bodies.

[00:34:02] For us to remember to always seek that balance between water and fire. But also to remember to have a good relationship with water and with fire. For me, I remember I became really sensitive to everything that was happening with water. I don't remember if you remember in South Dakota the pipeline that they were trying to build. 

[00:34:24] And the people from set up camp, and a lot of people came from over the world to fight that pipeline. That was like one of my big water awakenings. You know, I didn't go. I didn't go to South Dakota, but that was one of the big water awakenings and as I was yearning to come back home.

[00:34:44] And live back in El Campo, one of the main things I would always think about was, I really wanna have a dry toilet. It would kill me every time that I would start thinking all of the water that is wasted and contaminated in the big cities. It's like, When we live in this, in this lifestyle of the big city, we don't think about all the water that goes into maintaining cities.

[00:35:08] And that gets contaminated because of the daily use of water in the cities. And so for me, one of the biggest things has always been like, why do we flush toilets? Why do we contaminate water with our shit every single day? With like chemicals and pills and things to clean with and all this.

[00:35:26] So, When we came back home and we started building our home, we set up a dry toilet, a compost toilet, right? So we basically use soil, we like poop in soil inside a bucket, cover it with more soil, and then we go dump it out to like a big hole in the ground that we have, where that's all we put in there, the, you know, the feces. 

[00:35:48] So once it fills up, We fill it up with, with more soil and that's it. It decomposes right. But when I was in this process of making this, I kept thinking like, this is a prayer for the water. This is my prayer for the water. My prayer is that me as a human being that I can walk more gently on this earth and contaminate less and be more in right relation with these elements.

[00:36:13] So for me, putting in the effort to, to do this was a prayer for the water, you know, and every single day. That we use this toilet, this dry toilet, and that we don't contaminate water. I'm like, that is us being in that active right relationship with water. And that was important for me to do this so that my kids could see it and they could experience it and they could say, oh, okay, this is the natural way that we do things.

[00:36:38] This is the right way for humans to do things instead of, you know, contaminating more water. And so those are little things, you know, that. I'm not saying everyone has the access or the possibility to do this, especially if you live in the city. But I think that whatever work each one of us can do in a little scale or in a big scale towards, you know, water preservation and defending the waters of our world, I think that that is so important because we owe it to the water.

[00:37:07] Because we have seen that if we don't do it, we truly do become sick. Like there is so much at stake when we don't take care of the water. There is so much at risk of us losing and our lives are literally at stake when we don't take care of the water. So, yeah. I feel like if there's anything that people could walk away with today, from this conversation, would be that. 

[00:37:31] Josie: Yeah. That is it. I love that. And that, I think that's one of the things I admire the most about you is that you really live your values, and you've made really conscious decisions to create your life in a way that feels in alignment.

[00:37:50] With these indigenous ways of respecting the elements and the land and everything, it's, it's just really incredible. 

[00:37:59] Montse: Yes, thank you. I'm definitely not perfect. It's been a journey and there's a lot more work that we need to do, but just to give you an example, you know, when you have at home all these places where water pools.

[00:38:14] So for example, here at the house, we have this. This open tank, it's like an above ground tank. And when it rains, all the water comes into the tank and it fills up. And that's a way for us to use rainwater. And so one of the things that happened last year is that it didn't rain too much.

[00:38:32] It only filled up halfway or even less. And. We didn't really do much with that water. Right? Like we just kind of let it be there. And when you have water that is just stuck in a place and is not flowing, it starts becoming green, it starts smelling. But also like a lot of mosquitoes start developing right.

[00:38:52] Right. So one of the things that happened was that we got Dengue. And Dengue is a disease that is passed on through mosquitoes. We have never dealt with that before. And Dengue is quite a serious issue because it could be fatal. And the first ones that got it were the kids. I was like, wow, okay.

[00:39:13] What a clear reminder that we forgot about the water and that you can't just have water stuck somewhere in your house. Like it has to be flowing all the time. Cuz otherwise it'd be literally be dangerous. And so that was definitely a huge life lesson, right? To be mindful, to keep the home clean, to keep the water flowing, not have it be, you know, stuck or pooled anywhere and to, and if you are gonna collect it, to make use of it.

[00:39:42] And I feel like, we could, we could see the lessons in these things or not. It depends how everyone will perceive it differently, but I perceive it that way because I think there's always a lesson in everything. 

[00:39:55] Josie: Totally, wow. Yeah. That's so powerful. And that makes so much sense also from a Chinese medicine point of view because yeah, the same thing can happen in the body with, like you said earlier, with dampness, when there's too much water and it gets, it can create dampness in the body and stagnation, so, which can lead to a whole other host of problems. 

[00:40:18] So Yeah. That's so interesting. Yeah. Something I love that I learned from you, when an egg allows itself to be fertilized by a sperm, there's a little spark. Like, it's like the fire coming together, like coming into the egg to create life. Will you talk about that? I loved that.

[00:40:42] Montse: I think it's like the atlachinolli happening again. In like a little tiny scale. But it happens. It happens. It's there. I feel like if there's many different perspectives in different indigenous communities around what happens, In the moment of conception, but also what happens later when we consider that spirit arrives and that's the spirit is there, it's present for the baby.

[00:41:05] I'm always a little wary to, how I talk about this because I know that it could trigger things in people. And I also know that so many communities have different perspectives, but from our perspective. We have the moment of conception, where there's definitely this fire, this spark of life that happens, this electricity.

[00:41:29] Which is, I think it's like very natural, a very scientific, natural thing. That happens because fertilization is energy, is movement, is electricity. Our bodies have an electric charge, so I think that more than it being like this mysterious or mystical thing. It's just like a very natural thing. It's a very rational thing. 

[00:41:49] And then we have the moment when spirit arrives. Which is when we start hearing a heartbeat. And when we consider that like, okay, like this, this fetus, it's not just a fetus, but now there's a spirit that embodies it. And how, for example, when we are talking about miscarriage loss, abortion this comes into play. 

[00:42:15] This is important because some communities consider that, you know, some peoples and some communities will consider that every, every loss and every abortion at any point in the pregnancy is a loss of spirit, that there was a spirit present. And that it's a person.

[00:42:36] Not all communities view it the same way. In my perspective, and the way that I was taught within my family, when you have a loss, a miscarriage, or an abortion, that happens before six weeks of pregnancy. It's just considered an adjustment of menstruation. It's like, oh, well you missed a period and you take some herbs to adjust it and bring the blood back. 

[00:43:00] And that's it, it was just a missed period. But not everyone sees it that way. And then if we're having a loss or a pregnant of a pregnancy or an abortion that happened after those six weeks, Then we do view it as like a spirit baby, that that had to go back. It had to go back to spirit world for reasons that we sometimes don't understand. 

[00:43:21] And that sometimes are just beyond, beyond our knowing. And then we have, like, we have ceremonies and rituals for grieving and for guiding that spirit back to the source. And so there's many ways that we could interpret it.

[00:43:39] And I think that there's no one perspective that is above another. Which is the different ways in which humans. Deal with these human experiences. 

[00:43:49] Josie: Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Thank you for, for pointing that out. That's such an important point that it's, it's different for different cultures and, and yeah and that there's no Yeah. Right or wrong way of thinking about that for sure. 

[00:44:01] So I'm wondering if you have any advice for folks who are trying to conceive and what are some ways that they can increase their fertility or chances of conceiving. 

[00:44:13] Montse: So many things. Yeah. We could start with traditional foods. So for example, right now I'm having breakfast and our breakfast most of the time, almost every day is the same thing, cooked differently. But I have two traditional foods here that are actually great for fertility. So one of them is pumpkin seeds, squash seeds. And we eat those with like meals on the regular as a snack.

[00:44:41] They're highly loaded with zinc, besides other nutrients and minerals. But I think of zinc off the top of my head because sink, it's really good to, for fertility health, for egg health, like ovarian health. And eggs. We eat eggs almost every single day. And eggs are a great source of choline and we consider it to be just a very well-rounded, nutritious food at any point, right, for when you're not pregnant, for when you are pregnant for postpartum, like all the time.

[00:45:10] And so I think that like when you look at Indigenous food systems, so many of our foods that we consume every single day, like I'm also eating tortillas, you know, corn is the staple of our diet and it is a very well-rounded, nutritious food. I feel like when you look at our food systems, all these foods, really do support fertility.

[00:45:33] Because fertility, when you think about it, it's not just about, this is also something that's different in the US. In the US when they talk about fertility, it's like usually folks are having, they're on the sad diet, right? They're consuming all the standard American foods. Processed foods, and then it's like, okay, I wanna get pregnant.

[00:45:53] So I need to work on my fertility. There are expectations with pregnancy. So now I need to work on my fertility. So now I need to eat healthy and like go to the doctor and do all these things, and it's like, well, fertility is not just about having a baby. Fertility really does, in case so many other things, like when your body is good, when your body is strong and healthy and there's balance and you're having your traditional foods and you have a well-rounded nutrition every day.

[00:46:24] You're inevitably going to be fertile. Right, when your womb is cared for and you're going to get maintenance from a sanadora or from a traditional body worker, like you're inevitably going to be fertile because that's the natural state of us, of life in itself, right? 

[00:46:42] Animals are fertile, humans are fertile, and that's just this very natural thing of like preserving the species, right? The continuation of the species. We are meant to be fertile all the time and the foods that we eat support that, or not. So I feel like food is such an important part of this, food is medicine. 

[00:47:01] And another thing that I observe a lot in like American society is that when it comes to food, there's this, it's either dieting, like restricting yourself of all these foods. Which is very detrimental to mental health and emotional health. Or it's about the, the super foods.

[00:47:21] It's about overly consuming all of these like so-called super foods. That are being extracted from indigenous communities. To the point where they can't even consume those foods anymore. And so it's very like there's a lot of polarity and it's, it really does go to the extremes and it's just like a very unbalanced way of looking at food.

[00:47:44] But if we just go back to the basics, if we just simplify things and go back to the basics, it's like, what were your ancestors eating? What are the foods that kept your ancestors well and alive and nourished, even if you no longer live in the same territories as your ancestors did.

[00:48:04] But what are the foods that nourish them? Because you carry an ancestral memory of those foods. And if they were able to continue being fertile up to the point where you came about, then you know that those foods were definitely supporting them in their fertility. 

[00:48:20] Sometimes we just gotta simplify it and go back to basics. But also like healing our relationship with food. Not having this stress around food or these like negative attachments to foods, because food is supposed to be something pleasurable and beautiful. It's one of the most pleasurable things that we have as human beings. 

[00:48:42] So like having a prayer with your food or having an intention with your food. Sharing your food, right? Like we have an ancestor altar here at the house and when we eat, we put some food in the altar. I feel like all of those things when they come together, right? When you're looking at your traditional diet, when you're looking at your spiritual practices and your interaction with the world and the elements, I feel like fertility inevitably comes with that.

[00:49:10] I'm not saying that there aren't really serious, specific problems that folks can have like endometriosis, like PCOS. All these things that need like very specific protocols of care. That's there and we have an indigenous medicine. We have protocols for that.

[00:49:31] But I also think that there's a lot of stress that can come with like lack of fertility. There's a lot of stress that can come with that. And like hyper focusing on one thing. Or putting all of our. Putting all of our cards, all of our trust in one thing or one person. And then experiencing deception and experiencing that sadness when we don't have the results we want.

[00:49:55] So I really do propose like a change of, a change of air, a change of perspective, and like instead of hyper focusing on one thing, really trying to like. Change our entire way of relating to nature, to ourselves, to our bodies, to food, to our wombs, to fertility. And our idea of that, right?

[00:50:16] I also think that the stress and the pressure that can come with fertility also hinders fertility, right? Because then you're experiencing this stress and this anxiety and this tension that actually inhibits the production of hormones that we need for fertility. So with that comes like this ability to detach. 

[00:50:36] To detach from expectations and to detach from something so that it can come. Sometimes it's like we gotta do the opposite. We have to like detach from this thing that we so deeply want. And just sort of like let it be. And be okay with whatever will happen.

[00:50:54] To make space for it. Yeah. So there's, so, there's so much I feel like we could talk about fertility because there's the food, there's also like all of the environmental aspects that we have to take into consideration. We are living in such a different time. We're experiencing climate change.

[00:51:14] We're experiencing the age of plastics and the age of a bunch of substances created by people, created by humans. That were not on this earth before that like our ancestors were not dealing with right back then. I mean, we literally have like all of these toxins and plastics in the rain. They're showing up in placentas, they're showing up in breast milk, they're all over the ocean, you know, and it's like, it's such a different world.

[00:51:42] We really are living in a different world, and we also need to consider that a lot of the products that we put in our bodies, the like personal hygiene stuff, right? I'm somebody who, I really don't apply anything. There's no cream, no moisturizer, no nothing. And if I will, I make it myself.

[00:52:02] I make sure to make my own stuff to use it, because everything that you put in your body from deodorants to shampoo, to soaps, to all of the conventional stuff from the store is going to have substances that are just not gonna be good for you in any way, much less for fertility. So I think that.

[00:52:21] This can also be a stressful conversation because people are like, well, what do I do? What is the alternative? And a lot of the times, natural products also tend to be more expensive and inaccessible. But I also think that, again, we can simplify, we can simplify, put some lemon instead of the deodorant.

[00:52:39] Put some lemon or like salvia in your hair instead of like the hair products. Yeah. Sometimes it's just about simplifying as much as possible and going back to basics. 

[00:52:50] Josie: Yes. Ugh. I love that. I love that seems to be like a main message of yours is to simplify, simplify, go back to basics. I love that, that message.

[00:53:01] So Montse, how can folks support you, and find you, and buy all your things? 

[00:53:11] Montse: Right now I have a virtual space. It's a virtual little escuelita that is called Community Herbalism. It is open for Brown, Black, Indigenous People of Color that want to come and learn about herbalism from zero. From an indigenous perspective, from a decolonial perspective, and that are like getting started.

[00:53:37] But it's also good for those of you that are more seasoned and you know, have more experience with this. We have guest teachers right now. I took a pause because I was burnt out. And I had to acknowledge that burnout and ask for support. So I can really do pause. So I haven't been on the platform for like two weeks now.

[00:54:00] I haven't posted anything there. I haven't done any classes, but I'll be, you know, back on there soon. But we already have an archive of classes there. Resources, there's so many resources. There's herbal monographs guides that I have made for y'all. A lot of videos from the previous classes.

[00:54:19] So it's, it's a platform that is pretty well stocked. For folks to start diving into herbalism. It's only $26 per month. We have like three different tiers that you can choose from. So it's like a sliding scale. And you can choose to pay, you know, according to your capacity, but the lowest one starts at 26.

[00:54:39] And that's really like my baby right now that I've been creating and nourishing and feeding because I really. Want it to have a space where folks can come and learn about herbalism away from like the white perspective, because herbalism is also something that is full of racism and white fragility and colonialism.

[00:55:02] And I see that there's plenty of white herbalists that are like teaching very abundantly. A lot of people go to them and I'm like, well. We also have amazing black and brown and indigenous herbalist and like, we also need to learn with them. Yeah. It's a very personal thing, you know, for folks.

[00:55:20] How do they want to approach herbalism? Who do they wanna learn from? These are things that we should think about, you know? Who do you want your teachers to be? And so I'm here and I encourage people, like if they feel called to learn with me as I'm also learning. Then there's this beautiful space, Community Herbalism that they can join.

[00:55:40] It's on my social media, it's on Instagram and my Biolink. You can go there and sign up and you get like instant access to everything. And we have upcoming classes for the year and guests that are coming. One of my, one of the upcoming guests is gonna be my Nahuatl teacher, Dominga. She's from Veracruz and she's gonna be teaching us about herbs from her community and, and how they view, you know, their medicine.

[00:56:09] The best way to connect right now is like, when they go to my social media and follow me there, they can sign up for my newsletter, they can sign up for Community Herbalism. And since I'm not doing any virtual teaching as of right now, maybe I'll get back to it in like a week. But right now I'm on pause.

[00:56:27] I've been making jewelry and feather work and I've been doing raffles to like support myself and support my family. Because it felt like it was something easy. Like I was like, okay, I'm not gonna be working, but I still need to like have an income. So what feels easy and simple and joyful for me to do right now?

[00:56:49] And I love creating with my hands. I was like, I'm gonna make some beautiful pieces, some necklaces, earrings, things for the hair with feathers, and I'm just gonna like, do what brings me joy and, you know, let people buy that and support me that way. Yeah all of that is posted on my social media.

[00:57:06] They could go and see all the other things that I do and support that way. 

[00:57:11] Josie: Beautiful. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And for those of you who have not checked any of this out yet, definitely go right now. All of your things that you've created are just stunning. I've been like looking at them over and over going, which one do I want?

[00:57:28] They're so beautiful. You're so talented. 

[00:57:31] Montse: I think I forgot to mention the social media. It's @mujer_dela_tierra on Instagram. 

[00:57:49] Josie: Okay, cool. Yes, and I'll include all the links, everything you just mentioned. I'll include that in the show notes for folks.

[00:57:56] Montse: Thank you, thank you thank you. 

[00:57:58] Josie: Montse, thank you so, so much for your time and energy and saying yes to this conversation. I just appreciate, your teachings and the knowledge that you share and the way that you live your life. It's such a powerful example for all of us. So thank you. Thank you. 

[00:58:17] Montse: Thank you Josie.

[00:58:18] And thank you also like for being a part of Community Herbalism and for inviting me to this. I really love what you're doing and I think like when we are walking our purpose folks, you know, we'll connect with people that are also in alignment. We'll cross paths inevitably, that's really beautiful. Like I always keep crossing paths with awesome people like you. So gracías. 

[00:58:43] Josie: Absolutely.

[00:58:48] Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz. 

[00:59:05] If you like the show and want to hear more, tap subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, and please leave us a review. It really truly helps. 

[00:59:14] The Intersectional Fertility podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and produced by Rozarie Productions with original music by Jen Korte.