Episode 64 - Sallay Kallon: The Connection Between Western Science and Holistic Healing

Sallay (she/her) is a full spectrum doula with a background in immunology research. In today's episode, she'll give insight gained from joining Fertile and discuss how science backs up concepts in Chinese medicine and Indigenous traditions. Josie and Sallay will go over topics like how mind, body, and spirit come together, birth order and Kidney essence representing fertility, and the connection between hormones and the Liver.

[ID: A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 64: Sallay Kallon @thegarden.doula and Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier @intersectionalfertility.]

Follow Sallay on Instagram.

Visit her website.

Here is a link to the study mentioned about parasites and allergies.

Ready to shop better hydration, use my special link to save 20% off anything you order.

Registration for Fertile is open! Learn more and register here.

Hello listeners! Sallay here. I misspoke on the podcast  and wanted to make sure I got folks the right info! 

1. When talking about the HIV and Aging study I worked on, I said people living with HIV can have an increased risk of certain diseases and I mentioned Type 1 diabetes but meant to say Type 2 diabetes!

2. When speaking about cortisol and progesterone I also mixed up the order! Progesterone is a precursor of Cortisol. This means that progesterone is needed to create cortisol in the body, causing progesterone levels to decrease when cortisol levels rise.

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.

[00:00:00] Josie: I am Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our Whole Selves.

[00:00:32] Hi friend. Registration is still open for about one more week for my online program called Fertile. Fertile is a five-week queer, trans and non-binary centered program for folks with wombs to reclaim power over their fertility journey and conceive using my Whole Self Fertility Method.

[00:00:51] We get started on September 4th and we have virtual live sessions in September and first week of October. To look at the exact dates and times of those, you can go to my website, intersectionalfertility.com/fertile and check out those times. And if you're unable to make some or all of them, they all will be recorded, so you'll get access to that recording for about 90 days. So no worries if you're not able to make it live.

[00:01:17] In addition to the live sessions, you'll also get five weeks worth of content in the form of videos, downloadable handouts, worksheets and reference guides. Something that is new this session is that now you'll have lifetime access to everything, to all of Fertile content, all of the videos and handouts and guides and everything, and also our communities. 

[00:01:40] So the live sessions will be 90 day access, but everything else will be lifetime access. So as long as I'm running Fertile, you will have access to it which is really cool. So, no pressure of getting behind or not getting through the program in a certain amount of time or completing the certification if you would like to go that route.

[00:01:58] So yeah, no stress about, about having to do anything within a certain timeframe. So once you're in, you're in. And that means you'll receive any upgrades or additional content that I create for Fertile over time, which is really cool 'cause I have been adding to this program over the last couple years that I've been running it.

[00:02:16] You'll also get access to our private Qmunity where you can get additional support from me and current and past cohorts. Not only will we have our current cohort community, but something else that's new this session is you'll also get access to other private communities that are more specific.

[00:02:34] So there's a trying to conceive community, a BIPGM or BIPOC only community, there's a healthcare practitioner community. And all of those communities are also open to alumni. So previous Fertile participants. So that's another way for you to connect with folks who have previously gone through Fertile and to be surrounded with folks who are doing kind of similar things that you are. 

[00:02:57] If you're trying to conceive, or if you're a healthcare practitioner trying to support someone. You can find those folks who are doing similar things. There is an economic justice sliding scale, and payment plans are available for all, and scholarships are available for BIPGM or BIPOC.

[00:03:14] So you can find information about all of those on my website, intersectionalfertility.com. If you just click on programs, there's a dropdown menu, and you'll find the links to the sliding scale and the scholarship information. There are a ton of bonus resources in Fertile, we're actually gonna talk about some of them today.

[00:03:33] During today's episode, you'll hear more about those. A favorite one that was actually new last session is a personalized fertility worksheet. That is a really great tool to help you consolidate all of the information that you learned during Fertile and how it you know, specifically applies to you and your constitution your pattern, your diagnosis, and also you can use if you're working with clients, you can use it to help support them as well if you're in a healthcare practitioner role or support role.

[00:04:02] There's also something new this session, which is a training on how to use acupressure to increase your fertility. So a lot of the feedback I was getting from previous cohorts was that folks wanted more guidance around how to use the acupressure points that we were learning about. So I included that, I created that, and now that is a new bonus resource for this session.

[00:04:22] You'll also get, this is new, you'll also get a complimentary five weeks in our paid community with access to additional fertility webinars and coffee hours and bonus podcast content. Within the same platform as our community for Fertile. There are also my Intersectional Fertility Qmunities.

[00:04:41] There's a paid version and a free version. So you'll get complimentary five weeks to the paid version, which is normally about $26 a month. So that's where you'll get all these extra goodies of I do a monthly fertility webinar, so you'll be able to attend those if you'd like. Or that one if you'd like.

[00:04:58] And then you'll get access to all the recordings previous that I've done. I also have coffee hours, and so we can hang out, you know, additionally if you'd like. In addition to the live sessions for Fertile. And then there's also some really fun bonus podcast content that you can watch on video. So yeah, the, the paid community is really fun, so you'll be able to access that as well. 

[00:05:21] There is a certification option. If you are a support person or a healthcare practitioner and you'd like to become certified in the Whole Self Fertility Method, that will be available to you. And again, there's no time limit on it. So before I used to limit it to a year, and now you can take your time and do it when it feels right for your timeline. 

[00:05:40] And as always, your partner or partners can join for free which is really cool. So they get their own login, they can join, you know, access the Fertile content, come to our live sessions, hang out in our communities.

[00:05:52] Yeah. And however many partners you have, they're welcome. And of course single folks, you are highly valued and celebrated in this space as well. So you absolutely by no means have to be partnered in order to go through Fertile. So I am so excited for this cohort that's forming this fall and I'm really just really getting jazzed to hang out with y'all soon and to go through this session with you all and be in community together.

[00:06:20] So we get started really soon, September 4th. So you have about one more week or a little less than to join us. If you have any questions at all, feel free to email me, josie@intersectionalfertility.com and to learn more and register and join us, you can go to my website, intersectionalfertility.com/fertile.

[00:06:41] I hope to see you soon, and I hope you enjoy today's episode.

[00:06:44] Sallay Kallon is a Mende Sierra Leonean American full spectrum doula, researcher, gardener, baby herbalist, and photographer, supporting folks through the transformative journeys of fertility, pregnancy, postpartum, and abortion. Sallay is an auntie to the coolest little homies and is a lover of food, dancing, painting, sunrises, sunsets, and fluffy clouds, I love that. 

[00:07:20] Before becoming a doula, Sallay worked as an immunology researcher and loves geeking out about biology. Same. She's passionate about learning and about social immunology, the gut microbiome, and how these topics are connected to wellness and how to educate others about these topics in an accessible way.

[00:07:39] Welcome to the podcast, friend. 

[00:07:42] Sallay: Thanks. Happy to be here. 

[00:07:45] Josie: Yay. Oh, me too. So happy to have you here today. Will you share with us your pronouns and where you're joining us from. 

[00:07:54] Sallay: I use she her pronouns and I'm joining from the Unceded lands of the Arapaho, Cheyenne And Ute, which is now Denver, Colorado. 

[00:08:06] Josie: Me too. 

[00:08:07] Sallay: Yay. 

[00:08:08] Josie: I know. It's so fun to be local with one of my guests, That hardly ever happens. So will you share more about the work you do as a full spectrum doula and your background as an immunology researcher? 

[00:08:27] Sallay: Yeah, so as a full spectrum doula, like said in my bio, I support folks throughout like the full spectrum of pregnancy outcomes and like reproductive experiences. And when I was like becoming a doula at first, I guess like all I really knew about going into doula work was like birth and postpartum.

[00:08:51] And then I ended up taking the BADT full spectrum doula class and training and I was like, oh my gosh. Like there's so much more and like so much more that I wanted to like be able to provide and offer for people. And so thinking about like having my practice rooted in reproductive justice, like some of the questions I was asking myself when thinking about the offerings I wanted to have was like, how can I support folks when sperm isn't readily available?

[00:09:22] Or how can I also help support folks that are like not trying to conceive. And just like the biology of fertility is so cool that I was like, I really want to learn more about this. And just also like the full spectrum of things. Also like abortion care as well, and like grief and loss.

[00:09:43] And so, like as mentioned before, I was like doing some like research, specifically immunology research really looking at making a HIV vaccine, which was like the last project I worked on. A curative vaccine. And then also a study that was looking at the effects of HIV and aging and how like specific comorbidities like type one diabetes and cardiovascular diseases and some neurocognitive diseases are seen in higher, higher rates.

[00:10:20] And people that are living with HIV. And also like looking at the map of their cells. Like sometimes they look like they're aged. Because they've seen more things, basically. They've seen more antigen and virus. And so yeah, that's the type of research I was doing, I guess.

[00:10:37] Yeah. And I like transitioned out of that just 'cause I like went to grad school and the like, academia like kind of sucks right now. And it was like really traumatic and there's not really a lot of resources in like, higher institutions that I've been at for Like BIPGM folks and like having the infrastructure there.

[00:11:05] And honestly, it should have been a red flag. Like when I interviewed for the school, like looking at their, they had like a diversity presentation and like looking at the dates of like, when they started implementing things, it was all like summer 2020. And I was like, mm. Very convenient.

[00:11:26] Josie: Yeah, exactly. That's too bad. They missed out big time. Yeah. So what compelled you to want to join Fertile and what did you hope to get out of it? 

[00:11:43] Sallay: I think what compelled me to join is one, I had like listened to the podcast before joining and every time I would listen to the podcast it was like, oh my gosh.

[00:11:56] Like there was so much information that I was so curious about and would like take notes all the time and be like, oh, I need to come back to this. And then I really liked like the holistic view of like fertility and health and incorporating like the mind, body and spirit into that. And it's something that I really wanted to add into my practice.

[00:12:20] And then also like the fact of wanting to center queer, trans and non-binary BIPGM folks in my practice as well. And so I thought it would be like a good course to join and I wanted to join originally just to like certify in the Whole Self Fertility Method. But then like, going through the course, I was like, oh my gosh.

[00:12:40] I learned so much about myself too. That it was, it was really fun. 

[00:12:46] Josie: Oh, that's so cool. And did you have any hesitations about joining Fertile? 

[00:12:51] Sallay: I think my only hesitations at first were in my own mind being like, is this the right time to like take this training? Because at the time, When I was thinking about joining, I had also done like a whole bunch of other trainings recently, and I was like, I need to slow down.

[00:13:10] Like totally. This is a lot, this is a lot of information that I'm taking in. And then also, like financially, I was like, for myself from transitioning out of grad school, I was like, is this the right idea at this time? But I really appreciated and liked how you make the program really accessible with payment plans and scholarships.

[00:13:34] And so yeah, I took the chance and joined the training. Yeah.

[00:13:39] Josie: Yay. I'm so glad you did. Yeah. To I'm the same way. I take so many courses and online classes and stuff, and I just, I get to a point where I'm like, I can't do anymore. I have to finish what I, what I started. 

[00:13:52] Sallay: Right, right. And that was one of the things too in the course thinking about like the earth element and like digesting info. And like realizing for myself, a lot of the times I'm just like consuming a lot of things and consuming a lot of info, but not really like sitting with it all the time and seeing how like it digests 

[00:14:17] Josie: Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Totally. So I would love to talk kind of more about your experience, like in Fertile.

[00:14:26] What changes have you noticed in your body, mind, spirit or emotions, either since participating in Fertile or during Fertile or both? 

[00:14:35] Sallay: I think like during, I like was more connected to myself. In ways that like previously, like I think going through the experience of like leaving school, like left me really lost thinking about like, oh, 'cause this is a track that I thought I was gonna be on this entire time.

[00:14:58] And then like switched and like, a whole bunch of other things in my life were like going on. So it felt like very overwhelming and that I was like losing parts of myself. And so by like going through this course and like the different elements and learning like how like. They connect to like your mind, body, and spirit and like being like, oh, these are some things that I can do in like my, every everyday life that I can like utilize to connect more to like my authentic self and like my essence and stuff.

[00:15:31] And it doesn't have to be. And I think also for myself, I put like really big expectations on things. And so it's like, oh, like if I'm doing these things for myself, I have to do this, this, this, this and this. And like being like, no, I can do like one little thing and that counts and that's good.

[00:15:54] And I think also through the course I was like paying more attention to like my body cues. And like realizing a lot of things about like how, like one of the things I noticed a lot is how like I am in my head like a lot, I spend a lot of time in my mind like thinking out things and working out things.

[00:16:17] But like when I'm doing that, sometimes I'm not realizing how it like affects my body as well. So like one of the things that I was noticing during the course is like as I was like thinking through problems or like thinking through journal prompts, like I would clench my jaw and then like notice like, oh, I'm like clenching my jaw.

[00:16:38] Or like, oh, I've been thinking about all these things and I didn't even notice that I was hungry. So like pausing and being like, oh, okay, like unclench your jaw and like let's revisit this at a later time because yeah, it's too stimulating. 

[00:16:57] And then also it like made me think about, I guess like the gut-brain axis too, and how I thought about how, like I also have like a lot of like stomach issues a lot of the time and thinking about, I was like maybe me being in my head all the time too. Like there's a disconnect. Yeah. And so like kind of like sitting with that information and then also like noticing as I mentioned before, that I don't sit and like digest information.

[00:17:34] And then also, I really liked the earth element where we were talking about like boundaries and stuff. And like, I would like, through the course and during the course, I would like question like the boundaries I had, like around nourishing myself. And how like, a lot of the times, like I'll know like I'm lactose intolerant, and I know that I should not be eating dairy. But like, I like cross that boundary and I'm like, you know, like, I'm just gonna do it.

[00:18:04] But then like I suffer later and I'm like, oh my gosh. And so like through the course I was like, okay, like if I am gonna eat dairy, then I have to make sure that I have digestive enzymes, to help myself out. Maybe eat some fermented foods after, so like antioxidant rich foods to like balance it out.

[00:18:25] So it's not like, 'cause I think also like when I try to like completely restrict myself, that's when I'm like, well, Forget it. Like I'm gonna go crazy. 

[00:18:34] Josie: Yeah, yeah. Totally, totally. Yes, I can relate to that. That's so interesting. And I, and I'm sure you've heard like the other name for our digestive system as the second brain.

[00:18:48] So that's so interesting of like it's almost like that you're spending all this time our first brain, but, and then kind of missing that time in the second brain. So trying to kind of trying to more evenly space that out. Yeah, that's so cool. 

[00:19:04] Sallay: All about the balance, all about the balance. Yes. 

[00:19:11] Josie: Oh, that's so neat. And we're gonna geek out more about the science behind all this. 'cause I love your take on all of this, like the gut microbiome and how that applies to boundaries and Yeah. So we'll get into that as well. So what features did you like best about Fertile?

[00:19:29] Like the videos or the handouts or the live sessions or the private Qmunity or anything else? 

[00:19:34] Sallay: Well, it's like all of it, but also, I really liked the like personalized fertility worksheet because I was thinking like one with working with folks, it would be great for like myself and them to like start conversations around things. So it's like, oh, if they're like, have stuff on their sheet and it's like, oh, I noted that something was a little different this week than in the last week.

[00:20:05] And it's like, oh, we can like talk about that. Or like, any changes that are going on like through the cycle that are on like that sheet. And then I also liked it When thinking about like, when we were going through like nourishment and like different foods and stuff for the different elements.

[00:20:22] Like having that section there to like, kind of like how I was doing it. 'cause I like making things games and so I was like, oh, let me like look at like, depending on where I am in my cycle and like, based on my Like diagnosis, I'd be like, oh, like what are some foods that I can incorporate this week?

[00:20:47] And I would make it like, have you seen Chopped? Do you watch Chopped? 

[00:20:51] Josie: Uh, I think maybe I saw it once. I'm not super familiar with it. 

[00:20:55] Sallay: Okay. So on Chopped, they like come up with, you have these mystery ingredient boxes. 

[00:21:01] Josie: Oh, yes. I remember. 

[00:21:04] Sallay: Yeah, and so I will, they're not really a mystery because I'm definitely picking them out, but I'll like pick out some like ingredients and stuff and be like, Ooh, this is gonna be in my mystery box for the week.

[00:21:17] And then I like try to make different recipes and I call, it's like a self competition that I call Chopped Lite because during Chopped, they give you 30 minutes to, like make these meals. And that is not enough time for me. So I give myself two hours, oh my God. To make a meal, cook it up, and then my partner eats it, he's the judge, and will let know how the cooking's gone as well.

[00:21:49] Josie: Oh my gosh, I love this so much. That's so good. And I really do think that like structure allows for more creativity when you have those like bounds where you're like, okay, this is what I have to work with. For me, that's almost easier than just like an open, open-ended thing. 

[00:22:10] Sallay: Yeah, which is something, yeah, that I learned about myself too.

[00:22:15] Is that like, because I'm also, I don't know, I am, I know that I need structure, like it would definitely help me out, but sometimes I'm like, no, I just wanna be free and do what I want. But then I get overwhelmed by all the choices and I'm like, oh no, what do I do now? Yeah. So, yeah, exactly.

[00:22:36] Definitely helped me like, be able to narrow things down and be like, okay, like this is what I'm picking for this week, or like for this day, and yeah, putting them all together. 

[00:22:47] Josie: I love that. That's so awesome. That's such a great way to approach it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring that technique forward with me and use that if I can. 

[00:22:57] Sallay: Yeah. Chopped Lite. 

[00:22:58] Josie: Yes. Chopped Lite. So good. 

[00:23:03] Sallay: And then I also liked just all of the bonus resources were really great. And I think like the how to prepare for like, IUIs, ICIs and like egg retrievals and embryo transfers, like having that like all compressed into like a summarized kind of guide with like some things that you can be doing would be really helpful for like, when I'm like talking with clients and stuff.

[00:23:29] And then also like the timeframe and cost estimates. I thought was like really great for folks that are like just starting to explore, like trying to conceive and then being like, okay, like what is the timeframe gonna be? Like, what is the cost gonna be and how do I work that into All of this other stuff, like the premester and stuff that I'm working on.

[00:23:50] Josie: Totally, yeah. Thanks for saying that, when I was compiling all that info, I was like, man, this, I feel like these are the things that people ask the most and are the most confused about. And it's like, it doesn't exist. Like, there's not like a, it was hard for me to fig, you know, to compile all that into place.

[00:24:08] I was like, oh my gosh, this needs to be a resource. 

[00:24:13] Sallay: Great job, Josie. Great job. 

[00:24:16] Josie: That's awesome. Thank you. And was there any specific content in the program that you liked best or found the most useful? 

[00:24:25] Sallay: I really liked how in each unit we, there was like examples of like how you could include your partner or partners into the, like into the experience because it can feel very isolating when you're doing it by yourself. And so I really liked that aspect. And then also like how accessible you made like Acupressure points and things for like, folks that might not be able to, will have like, possibly have barriers to getting like acupuncture care.

[00:24:58] And so like having accessibility to these accupressure points, That they can do at home and do with their partner or partners. 

[00:25:07] Josie: Yeah. And then how have you benefited from participating in Fertile? Did you have any big like revelations or light bulb moments? 

[00:25:16] Sallay: I benefited from learning like more about my authentic self and my like, whole self. And thinking about it, I was like, by me being able to like be my authentic self and support myself like learning about like these different elements I can better support the folks that I'm trying to work with as well. And then also I guess like, I gained like a lot of cool tools to be able to like use now.

[00:25:47] And like be able to teach people about, which I'm learning that teaching is like something I really like. I used to be kind of like resistant to it. 'cause my dad's a professor, well he used to be a professor and so I was like, Ugh, I never wanna do that. Like, ugh. But now in thinking about it too, like I've always been like, like even when I was like in school for immunology, I would learn something and then like right after class be like, oh my gosh.

[00:26:18] Like texting my like siblings and stuff, being like, guess what I learned? Here's how you can use this in your life. Like, isn't this great? And then also I think like one of the. Like really interesting things and like light bulb moments that I had was like thinking about. When we were talking about the kidneys and like birth order.

[00:26:44] I thought that was super interesting. Well also made like a lot of sense and I was like, wow. Like, it like was connecting a lot of things for me. And then also like thinking about like, how can I better support folks through their postpartum period as well and restoring like that kidney energy.

[00:27:04] And like things like that and being like, okay, so incorporating that into the postpartum period. Like, I think like just thinking about like my own, like birth order and stuff. And like thinking how that can affect like my own kidney essence. And then I think like with all the information learned in the course, like I had a really fun time like connecting it to things that like, I was like, oh, like when we were talking about the other day when I was like, oh, candida overgrowth.

[00:27:34] And like being like, Hmm. Like yeast and like funguses and stuff. They like warm damp environments. And so I was like, oh. So it like makes sense that it would like have, there would be like connections with like dampness and like heat. And also like spleen qi deficiency. Right. And like, yeah, it was like really cool being able to like, Think about things and like connect them.

[00:28:06] Josie: Totally. Yeah. I know. I felt the same way when I was first learning about Chinese medicine, I was just like, oh my gosh, it all makes sense. Like all these things are so connected. Yeah. Yeah, it's almost like it's sort of overlaying, you know, what we've learned about the body and our systems, like from a western medicine perspective, but there's like no connections.

[00:28:27] It's like everything's so separate. And then in Chinese medicine it was like, oh, like this is a whole other way of looking at it. And it's so, yeah. So much more holistic and connected. 

[00:28:40] Sallay: Yeah. It's super interesting and to like, think about how like Indigenous folks around the world, like there's variations always in like specific regions and like what they had access to in different, like food types, but like the idea that like, connection to the earth and water. And like all of the elements was like so it's so cool to like see how like everyone knew what was up.

[00:29:13] Josie: I know. I know. This continues to be one of the things that like blows my mind and inspires me every day about doing this, is that yeah.

[00:29:23] Indigenous folks all over the world somehow had very similar information about, how the body works and about healing and about our connection to the earth and the cosmos and all of it is just like, How did that happen? How did that happen globally? 

[00:29:42] Sallay: Right. And like thinking about how like a lot of the times in Western medicine, like that's discredited.

[00:29:49] But then also I'm like, hmm. Now everybody's like, oh wait, yeah, let's get back to like these Indigenous traditions. And maybe they did know something. 

[00:30:00] Josie: That's right. Maybe they were onto something. I know, I know. Ugh. And then for folks who have not gone through Fertile yet, I wanna back up a little bit and, and just sort of give, give a brief sort of explanation kind of about what you were talking about, about birth order. where we talk about that is during the Water element week when we go through Water and each element of the five elements have to do with like a certain organ system a couple different organ systems.

[00:30:31] And so water has to do with the kidneys. And the kidneys are all about kind of our fertility basically it's like, sort of like our fertility blueprint. And so that, that kidney essence is where a lot of our sort of innate fertility comes from. Which can be affected depending on how much innate fertility you got from your birth parent.

[00:30:54] So it's like they have, everyone has so much birth, or not birth, but like fertility energy to pass on to the next generation. And so your oldest kid gets the most of that fertility energy. And then it gets a little bit more diminished with each, with each kiddo after that. So that's, that was what you were referring to earlier with the birth order.

[00:31:29] This summer, I've been prioritizing hydration and trying to stay well hydrated. And you know, we talk a lot about how important staying hydrated is for our fertility. Liquid IV is the category winning hydration brand, fueling your wellbeing and their hydration multiplier is the one product you're missing in your daily routine.

[00:31:49] Just one stick. You get five essential vitamins and two times faster hydration than water alone. You can use it first thing in the morning, before a body movement practice. Y'all know, I don't like the word exercise, when you feel run down after a night out, or on a long flight. 

[00:32:06] What I love most about Liquid IV is the convenient packaging. I also love how it makes me feel. It feels like I'm replenishing not only the water in my body, but the electrolytes in my body. It feels like a more complete hydration, especially when I've been outside doing yard work all day and it's really hot out. So far, I love the flavors Concord Grape and Lemon Lime, but they have 12 delicious flavors to keep your hydration routine exciting.

[00:32:32] The other thing I love is that Liquid IV partners with leading organizations for innovative solutions to help communities protect both their water and their futures. To date, liquid IV has donated over 39 million servings in more than 50 countries around the world. 

[00:32:48] Get 20% off when you go to liquid iv.com and use code wholeself at checkout. That's 20% off anything you order when you shop better hydration today. Using promo code wholeself at liquidiv.com.

[00:33:12] Do you feel that Fertile has given you the knowledge, support, and skills to feel more in control and empowered on your fertility journey or supporting others on their fertility journey? 

[00:33:23] Sallay: Yes. I feel like it given me like a lot of language to be able to connect things in a way that like is more accessible to folks. And then I think also like now having like a place to like send folks as well to like learn more about like fertility and then also like the Qmunity to be able to be in community with others who are also going through like similar experiences.

[00:33:56] And then I also, like, as I mentioned before, I really liked the handouts and the bonus resources, and I thought they were just so, like thoughtfully put together and put together with so much care.

[00:34:09] Aw. And I really like am looking forward to be able to share those with clients. And also, I think I wanted to mention this earlier, but I really like the journal prompts. They were so great. So thought provoking and yeah, I really liked them. And I've been able to like talk to one of my clients about them and for them they were like, yeah.

[00:34:38] This is great. Like having this added layer too is like such a bonus. 

[00:34:44] Josie: Aw, that's cool to hear. Yeah. I am such a journaler, so that's like one of my main tools that I use. Yeah, for sure. And then how did it feel to be in a program that centered queer, trans and non-binary folks? And especially BIPGM. 

[00:34:59] Sallay: It was really great because I feel like we don't see a lot of that in reproductive spaces where it's like super gendered a lot of the time.

[00:35:08] Yeah. And it's like hard to find like resources and places to like send folks to find resources that like are inclusive and aren't like super gendered. Yeah. And so I really appreciated that and I think is like a great resource for everybody that would like, wanna join the program. And then also in like, yeah, in the Qmunity too, being able to connect with people as well.

[00:35:36] And in the live sessions too. Yeah. I dunno why, I just forgot the live sessions. The live sessions were great. Like what?

[00:35:46] Josie: I know. I love the live sessions. I think that's my favorite part. 'cause I get to see you all and like hang out in real time.

[00:35:54] Sallay: I wish they were longer. 

[00:35:56] Josie: I know. Oh yeah. I know. I'm always sad when they're over. I'm like, maybe we should keep meeting.

[00:36:05] Sallay: It's great now though, with like, I was thinking about it too, like now that you have like the coffee hours and stuff too, so it's like extra time to meet. 

[00:36:13] Josie: Yes, that's right. That's right. That's why I did it because I was like, hopefully my alumni will come back and wanna hang out with me still. 

[00:36:20] Sallay: Yeah, I'll be there.

[00:36:22] Josie: Yay. So what would you say to folks who might be thinking about joining Fertile?

[00:36:30] Sallay: I would say to do it, it's really great. Like it's, it's such a great course and like the people that joined, like, it's such like a great environment and it was super comforting and felt like super comfortable being with everybody.

[00:36:50] And I think, yeah, the way that it's like the course is set up, it's like, as I was mentioning, like super thoughtful and really put well put together and like, Josie, you're the best. So it was like so great being in a space with you and thinking about like, listening to the podcast and, and like going through like the videos of, through the course and stuff, your voice is like a warm blanket.

[00:37:15] Aw. And so it was like very comforting and like, felt like, oh yeah. Like it was so nice. 

[00:37:23] Josie: Oh, that's so sweet. I'm blushing. Thank you. Okay, so now I would like to geek out about how cool science is. You and I have an interesting overlap of our backgrounds because I was gonna go this route of the more scientific western medicine route before I went the acupuncture route. 

[00:37:47] And I still have a lot of that I don't know, passion or interest or curiosity about just like the science behind all, you know, healing and how it happens Yeah. On a cellular level. And I just find it fascinating and so cool and you know so much more about this than I do. But you know, what, what I do know and what I remember from my studies ages ago now, you know, is just that there's so much that backs up.

[00:38:14] Like what is happening in the body and what's happening, you know, from that more holistic viewpoint that we've been talking about. I feel like science really kind of proves it or, or really backs it up quite a bit. So yeah, I would just kinda love to talk more about that and how, you know, some of those connections specifically like.

[00:38:36] Was it yesterday you and I were ta, or no, it was Wednesday. We were talking about you know, boundaries. So that was the other thing I was gonna kind of give an overview to folks who haven't been through Fertile. During the week of the Earth element we talk about how Earth is related to the digestion in Chinese medicine.

[00:38:55] And so, you know, one of the ways that we interact with the world is by digesting, you know, food and we transform it into blood and energy or qi. And we also, you know, digest information and it's just one of our main interfaces with the world, you know, is our digestion. And when we have, you know, when we're not able to digest, you know, our system can overreact or not be able to decipher, to differentiate between self and others.

[00:39:28] Which can really wreak havoc on our fertility, for example. You know, so when we're trying to, you know, welcome someone else's DNA into our body, then our body can overreact or attack it, you know, when it, when it needs to be welcoming to it, you know? So that's why, you know, I work with folks to you know, work on their boundaries to kind of increase that ability to differentiate. Not only on a macro level, but importantly on a cellular level when they're trying to conceive.

[00:40:00] you and I were talking about this and yeah. What, what are your thoughts on that in terms of the microbiome and all, and all of that? 

[00:40:07] Sallay: Yeah. So I still, I was like thinking in my head again. I was like, what did I say in the class? Like, I still don't remember what it was. 

[00:40:16] Josie: I know, but we're gonna find it one day.

[00:40:19] Sallay: Yes. Thinking about like, I guess like right away, what one of the things that I was thinking about for like boundaries is that like one of the boundaries, like in like, I guess biology and like immunology that is still like, not really like fully understood, but is like really cool, is like the boundaries that like our immune cells in the gut, which like most of our immune cells are like reside in the gut.

[00:40:49] And then most of our microbiome is also in the gut and they are like super interconnected. And thinking about like, How does like your body know, like that food isn't like a pathogen because it is like a foreign substance that is like entering your body, but there's like mechanisms and like boundaries that are like able to like differentiate between like, oh, this is, this is food, this is pathogenic. This is self, and this is other.

[00:41:22] And so like, one of the things that I was also thinking about like with the gut is like with like leaky gut is like a diminishment of the boundaries based on like, it can be influenced by like gut inflammation and things like that. And then it like basically It allows like bacterial products and like toxins to be able to like enter the bloodstream and then your body, like outside of that the immune cells that are like in your bloodstream are like, wait a minute.

[00:41:52] Like you're not supposed to be here. What's going on? And so like those boundaries too. And then like thinking, I was just thinking too about like how like everything is like connected and like thinking about like stress. And like, stress can affect your fertility and it also can affect your immune system cause like cortisol is super useful for your immune response, it like gets your immune response going.

[00:42:20] But in like chronic inflammation, it's like you have cortisol levels that are high for longer amounts of time, so you have like increased amounts of like inflammation as well. And like cortisol, like it's weird. Everything really is connected. 'cause like cortisol is a precursor for progesterone.

[00:42:42] And like thinking about like estrogen, like estrogen influences the production. And like synthesis, 

[00:42:53] Josie: synthesizes? Yes. Oh, that's a tough one. 

[00:42:56] Sallay: It is, I have a lisp and it's, it's rough sometimes. 

[00:43:01] Josie: Oh, I get it, yeah, I hear you. 

[00:43:02] Sallay: Yeah. And so like, And like the degradation of like serotonin and like serotonin is also a precursor for melatonin.

[00:43:13] So like, thinking about how those things can like, affect your sleep. And then like thinking about how they can affect your fertility and then like with like the microbiome and like the gut connection with like estrogen balance and fertility. Like your estrogen metabolism, like first happens in like your liver.

[00:43:35] Then like it, it like breaks it down into this way that it's like a conjugated, smaller form of estrogen. And then it's like transferred into the gut through like the small intestine. And so like after it's metabolized by the liver, it's excreted into there. And the bacteria that are in the, there's bacteria in the gut microbiome that is like known as like the estrobolome because they're able to like cut up the conjugated estrogen that came from the liver.

[00:44:09] And absorb other nutrients as well. Absorb that and then let the estrogen go into the bloodstream. And so, like if you have like an imbalance in your gut microbiome, there can be situations where you would have increases in the type of bacteria that break down estrogen, which could lead to elevated levels of circulating estrogens.

[00:44:34] And so this possible, like, Upregulation of estrogen can play like roles and conditions like endometriosis and PCOS and other estrogen dependent conditions and like cancers. And so it's like, okay, like, 'cause also it's like, okay, this is an issue, but like, how do I help myself? 

[00:44:56] Josie: Now what? 

[00:44:57] Sallay: Yeah, like they, there's studies that have found that like fiber can reduce like beta glucuronidase, which is the enzyme that the bacteria are making to break down the estrogen.

[00:45:12] And so like you're able to reduce like the amount, if you had like high estrogen levels, you could reduce the amount by helping your gut microbiome eating some more fiber. But then also, there's like, if the activity is like, if you have, like, the issue is like microbial diversity. It can cause like lower levels of beta glucuronidase, if like the bacteria that make up the estrobolome are like decreased.

[00:45:45] And so that could lead to like lower estrogen levels. And it's like how do you increase those? There's like phytoestrogens and like plant foods. And then there's also, like, I was reading a study where they said that high fat and high protein can also increase estrogen, or no, it was, It wasn't estrogen. It was beta glucuronidase activity, if I remember correctly. Don't quote me on that. I don't remember.

[00:46:19] Josie: Whoa, that's so interesting. Yeah. So what does it look like when there's low estrogen rather than too much estrogen? 

[00:46:27] Sallay: So low estrogen could be because there is like a decrease, like if you have a decrease in microbial diversity where you have like the bacteria is still there. But it's like being overpowered by other populations that are, have like more activity. 

[00:46:48] So if you have decrease in the amount of bacteria that are able to process estrogen, then you'll have less of it going back into the bloodstream and then have like the lower levels of estrogen. Circulating estrogen. 

[00:47:05] Josie: Right, right. Oh, that's so interesting. Oh, I love hearing the, what's happening on a cellular level, because I talk about this a lot in Fertile and with my patients, is like, one of the main things that we work on is like how to alleviate stress on the liver, you know, the liver loaders is what we call 'em. You know, in western medicine, like alcohol, caffeine, sugar, you know, those things that are processed primarily in the liver.

[00:47:35] The more we can kind of lift that, those burdens, then the liver is able to process estrogen more efficiently. So that we can have like more balanced levels of estrogen in the body. So we don't get those, like you said, like the estrogenic reproductive disorders basically that are estrogen dependent or estrogen driven. 

[00:47:54] So That's so fascinating to hear, like what's actually happening with that. That's so cool. 

[00:48:01] Sallay: And it's like, yeah, like they're all connected too, like thinking about like the liver and like the liver's gonna like break things down before it gets to the stomach and like, or not the stomach before it gets to like the small intestine. And like thinking how those are all connected is really cool. 

[00:48:22] Josie: So cool. Yeah, that makes so much sense. 

[00:48:26] And another thing we were talking about the other day was this, it seems like, so what we talk about is, you know, that boundary issue, you know, within that earth element and how that affects fertility, potentially, and that's, that that lack of boundaries on a cellular level is kind of also how it's that same functionality of autoimmune disorders.

[00:48:52] And it seems like, it seems like there's more autoimmune patterns happening as we're more and more exposed to toxins in our environment. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think that's true? 

[00:49:05] Sallay: Yeah. So like one of the things like, and one of the things that were in the course, like when we talked about like endocrine disruptors, and like things like those, so like endocrine disruptors can, like mimic or like block hormone responses which can like shift like your hormonal balances and lead to like overproduction of some hormones or like block production or like, or things like that. And so it can also cause like immune dysfunction and things like that.

[00:49:38] And one thing that is really interesting that I learned about, like not too long ago is that estrogen has impacts on so like a part of like B cell, like when they become. Like ready to go and the bone marrow is, they go through this process where if they bind, if their receptors bind really well to self, then they're either like destroyed or they're like put into this inactive category where they're like, they won't do anything.

[00:50:11] But estrogen is able to like increase the amount of like Induce like the production of autoantibodies. And can potentially, like, I think it was one study or there might have been multiple. Mm-hmm. Now I can't remember, but it shows that like estrogen can block the elimination of the Autoreactive B cells.

[00:50:35] And so those like B cells that might actually have been removed or. Become inergic, which is like when they're inactivated. You like, see more of those which can increase, like it can make your body more hyperactive. Which would be more of like an allergy or an autoimmune response.

[00:50:57] Or like lead to like immunodeficiency, because your estrogen also, there's estrogen receptors everywhere and estrogen receptors are on like your immune cells and stuff. And so they can help like modulate like your immune response. It's so much. 

[00:51:16] Josie: It sounds like when we mess with our hormones too much with, by being exposed to toxins that, Yeah.

[00:51:24] That can really wreak havoc on our hormones. Like that can lead to. Just kind of a malfunction of our immune system. It sounds like. 

[00:51:34] Sallay: Yeah. 

[00:51:34] Josie: Yeah. That's so interesting. Where we see like more immune or autoimmune disorders. And then also, like you said, more allergies. 

[00:51:44] Sallay: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:51:45] Josie: Yeah. Interesting. And what was that study that you were telling me about? About the parasites and the allergy? That was so interesting.

[00:51:55] Sallay: Oh, yes, yes. It's so cool. I'll say right away that while I'm saying this, I'm not saying that parasites are good. Like they're not, they can cause disease, like no. But like the thought is like, oh, well, like one, like there's a lot of like, There's a lot of allergy and like when you look at maps of like allergic responses, there's like more allergy in western countries and also just countries that have lower parasitic burden.

[00:52:32] And so it's like, Hmm, wait a minute. Like, what's that? And so the arm of the immune system that deals with allergy and parasitic infections are the same. And so like the thought might've been that like the mechanism is that like we originally like co-evolved with like parasites and worms.

[00:52:56] And so like we have. There's like responses that we have to that. And because like if you're not exposed to like parasites or the paras, like instead of having a parasitic response, it could be that your immune system is targeting other molecules and causing allergic reactions. But then it's like, well, why is that?

[00:53:18] And so in the study, like they found that it was done in London. I'll send you the yeah. Paper to put in like the show notes or something if you wanna read it. 

[00:53:32] Josie: You know I do! 

[00:53:34] Sallay: Yeah. They were like looking at the similarities of like proteins that are known to cause allergies and then like compared them with proteins from like A bunch of parasite species.

[00:53:50] And so they did this using like it was very computational, so they like compared the protein sequences and then like the structures of the proteins, because depending on like how like proteins are folded in your body, different points can be accessed. And it can cause like different reactions.

[00:54:11] And so like they identified like, it was like 2000 or so proteins that were similar in parasites that were also similar for allergic proteins. And so they found like one that resembled like birch pollen. Hmm. That was like also this type of worm. And so like from the study they were like, okay, like this is cool and all, but like, does this, because it's computational.

[00:54:39] So it's like, how does this work in people? And will these predictions that we have, like, oh, that these are similar, will we see this response in actual people? And so they collected blood samples from people in Uganda that were infected with a certain worm that has the same, well, a similar protein to like the birch protein.

[00:55:01] And they found I can't remember the, do I have it in my notes? Yeah. One in six of them were able to produce antibodies that recognized like the worm protein based on the birch protein. 

[00:55:15] Josie: Hmm. Wow. That's fascinating. 

[00:55:18] Sallay: So it's like there's similarities and the proteins that are made in. Parasites and also in allergens. Which is really wild. And really cool too, because it's like, again, everything's connected. How? Like, oh. 

[00:55:41] Josie: Yeah. And, and weren't you saying like, so then for example, like Americans are less exposed to parasites and so maybe that might be why they have more allergies. 

[00:55:55] Sallay: Yeah. 

[00:55:56] Josie: Yeah. That's so interesting. Mind blowing. I just love, I love learning about this stuff. It's like, what? Yeah. So cool. 

[00:56:06] Sallay: But then it also makes me wonder, and they were talking about in the was it in the paper? About how like maybe also like, it could be that there's like, we've evolved and there's like this parasitic Like evolution of like allergy, but then also like, maybe it is also just a way for like our body to keep us away from environmental toxins.

[00:56:31] And being like, oh, like, yeah, this is, this is not good. Which is interesting now that I think about it too, because like there are like more people now that are allergic to dyes. Like Red 40 allergies and things like that. So like, think and like thinking about the effects that like a lot of those dyes have on your like immune system and like inflammation and things.

[00:56:58] And so it's like, yeah, maybe it is like, A little bit of both. Where it's like, which is it always is. It's always, it always is. Never one thing. Never one thing. 

[00:57:11] Josie: Yeah. So complex. That's so cool. Okay. I could talk all day as we know, to you about this stuff. It's so interesting to me. That's so cool. 

[00:57:22] So how can people find you, support you by all your things? 

[00:57:27] Sallay: You can find me on Instagram @thegarden.doula and you can also find me on my website which is growinggardensdoula.com. 

[00:57:41] Josie: Lovely, nice. And I'll include those links in the show notes for folks. 

[00:57:46] Sallay: Thanks! 

[00:57:47] Josie: Sallay, thank you so much for coming. This was so much fun. 

[00:57:51] Sallay: Thanks for having me. I always have so much fun having conversations with you. 

[00:57:57] Josie: Oh, me too. It's the best. 

[00:58:00] Sallay: Yeah. 

[00:58:03] Josie: Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz.

[00:58:20] If you like the show and want to hear more, tap subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, and please leave us a review. It really truly helps. 

[00:58:29] The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and produced by Rozarie Productions, with original music by Jen Korte.

All content offered through The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is created for informational purposes only, it is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.