Episode 38 - Malori Holloman: Decolonizing Wellness and Healing Practices

Malori (they/she) is a Black, queer, and non-binary person currently in pursuit of their doctorate in acupuncture and Chinese medicine. In today's episode, Malori discusses her experiences as a Person of the Global Majority in an Americanized institution of learning these wellness and healing practices. This conversation encompasses self advocacy, challenging the cishet and whitewashed systems in place, and listeners can learn a little bit about acupuncture and Chinese medicine as well.

[ID: A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 38: Malori Holloman @emelayche and Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier @intersectionalfertility.]

Content Warning: a brief mention of experiences with sexual assault toward the end of the episode.

Find Malori on Instagram.

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.

[00:00:00] Josie: I am Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our Whole Selves.

[00:00:32] Malori is a Black non-binary queer human from Philly. They're about halfway through their doctorate in acupuncture and Chinese medicine at the Pacific College of Health and Science in San Diego, California on Kumeyaay territory. She enjoys candid conversations and is humbled to be invited onto the Intersectional Fertility podcast.

[00:00:55] And I have to say, Malori, you're the first person that has included the Intersectional Fertility podcast in your bio. So I just wanna tell you that I am humbled to have you on as today's guest, and I enjoyed this conversation so, so much. Hope you all enjoy as well.

[00:01:22] All right. Welcome back to the podcast everyone. Malori, welcome. That's so nice to have you here. 

[00:01:29] Malori: Hey, Thank you for having me. 

[00:01:31] Josie: Will you share with us your pronouns and where you're joining us from today? 

[00:01:35] Malori: Sure. My name is Malori. My pronouns, I use the they and she series of pronouns. That's like a new way of describing it that I picked up from a person. And I love it. I live on Kumeyaay Lands, colonially known as San Diego, California. 

[00:01:57] Josie: Cool. So what is the story that led you to study acupuncture and Chinese medicine at Pacific College of Health and Science? 

[00:02:08] Malori: Oh, man, it was kind of random. Well, I don't really honestly believe that anything is random, but I moved to San Diego after living in Vancouver at the unseated Territories of the Musqueams, Tsleil-Waututh, and Squamish people. And I needed a job, really bad. So the jobs that I thought I was going to be doing, they were falling through. And so I racked up all types of random gigs. I was volunteering and a friend there, a new friend there was like, oh, you know, a friend of ours, they're an acupuncturist and they need a an assistant.

[00:02:57] I was like, oh my God, that would be amazing. I had just finished a holistic nutrition program in Canada and so I was really like looking for an opportunity to maybe use some of those skills in some capacity. I was also terrified of starting my own practice. Terrified. Particularly with like the legal aspects and business side things.

[00:03:22] I was supposed to start in January, 2019. Didn't really start until I think, April of 2019, and then by June I was just like, huh, I think I could do this. I wanna do this. Mind you, I wasn't anticipating going back to school for quite some time. My partner was actually planning to go to grad school to become a physical therapist.

[00:03:53] And so I was just like, I don't know if this is the right move. It just came outta left field. But at the same time, there was like this part of me that was just like, yep, that's what you're gonna do. And I was like, am I really? I remember calling my dad and telling him that I was I think I had already gone to the admissions office and, you know, and, and talked to them.

[00:04:20] I was like, yeah, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna start an acupuncture program. He's like, what? What is that? Oh my God. What's the, he's so, my father loves stability, and mind you, I was like 28 at that point. Had gone to college, had an undergraduate degree. Went to Canada for this nutrition thing. He was just like, this is like the third time.

[00:04:45] What are you doing? And, but in reflecting on like this whole process, so like April, I worked at a clinic, I think July I was, I left that clinic, I stayed so that someone else could come on. And I created like a little bit of a, you know, hey, this is what I do in a day, you know, started that for the next assistant and left on good terms.

[00:05:15] And then I started in September of 2019. And lo and behold, I live like 12 minutes away from Pacific College. This was the second time that I lived within like 20 minutes, 15, 20 minutes of an accredited school for acupuncture and and Chinese medicine. The other school was Maryland University of Integrative Health.

[00:05:40] And I just try not to let things get to three. Like, I'm like, okay, have a second time. All right. Bye. Let's just do it.

[00:05:50] Josie: Oh, totally. It's like the universe kept placing it next to you, like, go here. 

[00:05:55] Malori: Do the thing. Do it, do the thing. But it was, it was definitely one of those moments where, Like in all of the, "this does not make any sense. What, why, how, how much is this gonna cost?" There was like this very constant, clear Yes. And I didn't even care that my dad was freaking out. Like I was like, no, I need to do this For me, I feel like this is a part of my path, what I need to do, so I'm gonna do it. I like told my partner casually.

[00:06:30] While I was also talking to my neighbor. Right. She just happened to ask me a question that led into that. So I was like, oh, so this is for everyone right now? My partner's name is Tiffany. And yeah, she was just like, what? And now she's considering the school.

[00:07:00] Did I answer your question or have I have I spun off so much? 

[00:07:04] Josie: No, that was good. I got all the deeps. I love it. So I'm so curious because I went to, when I went to acupuncture school, it was in mostly cishet white demographic, and I don't know about Pacific College, what it's like, but what has it been like for you being an acupuncture school as a queer non-binary person of the global majority?

[00:07:29] What's that been like? 

[00:07:31] Malori: Lots of tongue biting. Lots of tongue biting. Rolling of the eyes. I was also there in summer. It's like June, July of 2020 when everybody was just like, I wrote several, you know, flaming emails. I may or may not be on a recording calling the president of the school out.

[00:08:04] Josie: Wait. You cut out a little bit, which might have been like the zoom fairies doing something. 

[00:08:09] Malori: No worries. I said I may or may not have been on a recording calling the president at the time of the school out for just glossing over some things.

[00:08:18] It's been a journey. And in some ways I think it's important for me to continue to like, have fire and use discernment and try to like, mm, no, that's not gonna. And then other ways, I'm also learning to just like breathe a lot, a lot. Right. And pick my battles because at the end of the day, like I'm most useful once I'm out and I'm licensed and this is a pathway to licensure.

[00:09:00] Totally. I think that I have, I've definitely shifted my expectations of the school and for better or worse, I don't know, like, honestly, I don't know at this point. But it's just like, okay, I'm using the school to help, to qualify me to take a licensing exam. The school is a business

[00:09:26] The school is, I think is separate from the faculty and the staff, but also part of a reflection of, and it's twofold. But I've had really nourishing relationships with faculty and I appreciate that. And so it's just like this delicate dance around, it really just points to that yin yang concept of, you know, all of it is here.

[00:09:59] What are you gonna do with it? How do you navigate it? And where do you push back? Where do you surrender? I'm learning a lot of that. I would say that there's far more out, queer people on campus, especially in my cohort, which is really awesome to see and to have. 

[00:10:22] As far as being non-binary. I only recently came out as non-binary. I am definitely of the, like, I think that I still use the she series of pronouns just for my own emotional ease. Like if I can accept that about, like, I can accept that about myself and if I can make that accessible for people, it just, it lessens the emotional mess.

[00:11:01] And there's definitely still just. Oh, let me swat that off. Like moving through a lot of like physical exam courses and a lot of the biomedical aspects and just the framework that we're still moving from. I remember being in a class, I can't remember which one it was exactly, but we were talking about hips and and wider set hips versus narrow hips.

[00:11:28] The teacher was just like, oh yeah, women have wider hips than men, blah, blah, blah. You know? And I'm just like, okay, I can't, I'm not gonna sit here and lecture this person in the middle of their class, you know, on how to da, da, da. But when I asked a question, I made a point to say, so for people with wider hips, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:11:50] And she like automatically went to, well, women, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh my God. I was just like you're not getting me. And then she, I was like, look, I'm gonna say what I'm gonna say. You can say what you need to say, but like, yeah, I said what I said for a reason. And and then later she was like, oh, I wasn't trying to offend anybody.

[00:12:11] I was like, that's fair. And like the reality is, there are people with like various body configurations and it's just, it's not as binary as would be convenient. It's just not. So there's that. I'm often just kind of like bracing myself and yeah, I have another classmate who's trans and non-binary, and it's just like, we are just like taking nods, you know?

[00:12:43] Or it's like, you wanna take, like pass out, you wanna. how you wanna handle that? Yeah, it's pretty wild. But I am, I'm very much understood to be like, people generally refer to me like she her on campus. I've said they, them, I've made different pos. Some people make adjustments and I really appreciate those people.

[00:13:13] And I just, I don't even, I don't have the energy to be mad anymore. Right. There's just, I have other things to put the limited energy that I have, I have to put it towards actually finishing this program. And doing the work that I wanna do in the world.

[00:13:32] Josie: Yeah, totally. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm wondering too, as I think about this myself as a non-Asian person practicing Chinese medicine, a tradition that's not in my bloodline, I would love to hear your thoughts or is this something you ever grapple with or think about? 

[00:13:49] Malori: It's definitely something that I think about. Or, or I've definitely thought about before.

[00:13:54] And I think it's also part of why I never really considered acupuncture to be a part of my plan in the future. Or going into like Chinese medicine or East Asian medicine, like it just never registered even though I sought out acupuncture and I would use acupuncture for like, anxiety and to take naps.

[00:14:19] Shout out like Poke acupuncture, Community acupuncture in Vancouver. Like that place was a little haven. So I'm a person who is descended from enslaved Africans that were brought to the US., and in that existence there's a lot of, I don't even know who, where, you know, like, I don't know.

[00:14:52] There's just so much of my existence that is unknown in the ways that I think Western Society considers things being known. If you catch my drift. In the concrete Cartesian way. In knowing. From what I know, like I'm not Asian, I don't have Asian, I did Ancestry none of that came up.

[00:15:21] But oddly enough, I'm often mistaken to be Asian, or mixed with Asian. I just love when people play like, what? What is Malori? I love it, it's so much fun. So I think in some capacity, I think from a visual cue, People kind of give me like an automatic potential pass.

[00:15:48] But personally, I just do my darnedest to be someone who is a, a responsible steward of this medicine and to give credit to the cultures that have maintained this medicine and the wisdom for so long so that we could learn it today. There's also interesting, I've come across like the uses of acupuncture in Africa and cupping. 

[00:16:16] And understanding that Somalia was part of the Silk Road. Like there's other influence, there's African influences from that era. And so in a lot of ways I find parallels to some of the teachings that I have been introduced to through Ifa or Yoruba, which is a African tradition, traditional religion. 

[00:16:43] Like with Du 20 and that being like the ancestral gathering point. Like that's where our ori is held. And that's like our own personal deity. The deity that connects us to our ancestors. And so like, it's just like there are some things, even like looking at like the divination practices and the I Ching.

[00:17:13] There are similarities where I'm almost like totally our people were talking, things were happening. There was something going on and, and so I just kind of hold true to that and I hold true to that core sense of like, this doesn't make any sense, but it makes all of the sense.

[00:17:33] I'm very eager, I'm always eager to learn from other Asian practitioners. Learning about Dr. Miriam Lee, Doc Hayes. Their contributions as far as being the foundation around like Chinese medicine being practiced in the US. And I think there's also an understanding that like, wherever Chinese medicine goes, like it's going to morph and change to the environment.

[00:18:08] But I just do my best to really make sure it's, I'm rooting that. I'm always taking it back. And, you know, I'm not out here calling something after someone else's last name that is like, that's gua sha what are you talking about?

[00:18:28] It's like, let's hold on, hold on. You're skipping steps. Because so much of this work has been historically tied to lineage, and so it's important to acknowledge that and to recognize, like, yeah. Just to recognize like where I fit within that web and connection.

[00:18:47] Josie: Totally, totally. Yeah. That's so interesting. When I was studying the traditional Mexican folk healing art of curanderismo, there's also some cupping. Like similar things where I was like, wait, what? like, isn't that fascinating? Folks were talking.

[00:19:08] Malori: Folks were talking. My grandma taught me early, early on she was like, People were traveling and moving across this planet long before colonization, so to speak.

[00:19:19] Look at the beading across the world. Look at the foods across the world, like there's influence all over and people were sharing and shifting, and so it's just like always feeling that we're far more connected and alike than we aren't. Just for the sake that we're able to create viable humans.

[00:19:43] Reproductively, viable humans. Like if you're not the same species. We ain't horses and mules, horses and donkeys making infertile mules. Like these people, we can still procreate. 

[00:20:00] Josie: Right, right. So I'd love to shift gears a little bit and talk more about diversity and inclusion in the wellness industry. I know, when I think about things like yoga and acupuncture I think about how whitewashed they've become and just how far from their original form. What are your thoughts about how cishet whiteness has co-opted various ancient healing modalities? 

[00:20:27] Malori: Whiteness gonna do what whiteness does. When people aren't grounded in their own in their own selves and in their own histories there's often like this need to find something else. There's nothing wrong with seeking other things and exploring but it's, when trying to co-opt and make it come off as like your own and your own without any real credit. 

[00:20:59] That's when it's just like, well, that's a little funky. They gonna do what they gonna do. Yeah. And I have gotten to a place where I'm just, I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. In a way that feels good to me and that honors listening to other people and backing off.

[00:21:22] Honoring other people and where they are. It's a different way of being. It's a different way of being that isn't mine. At least I try not to make it mine. I do have to acknowledge that I grew up in the United States and so, the fishbowl I've been swimming in is that of like capitalism.

[00:21:48] There's a particular kind of way of being here. And so I think that I get to also acknowledge that I likely have some blind spots. So I just, I hope that I am graciously checked, if necessary, and not a Black person out here just doing the same old thing that white people do, but in a Black body cause that's a thing too, you know, not all skin folk are kin folk. 

[00:22:19] And so it's like, well, what's your compass? It's prevalent. It's around, it's a beast of its own. And for me, I just, I try not to, in some ways, I think that like starving it at the source is useful. So I don't even like, put a lot of energy into it. I respect the people who feel like that's how they go about it. By all means go forth. But yeah, I'm just over here trying to get this license, and trying to subvert the way that Chinese medicine is practiced in the US on my own little corner, my own little world. 

[00:23:02] Josie: I love that, I love that. Yeah, totally. And I love seeing folks like, do you know about Jessamyn Stanley? Have you heard about, Ugh, I love Jessamyn.

[00:23:14] Malori: I do. Yes the expansion, like, I think that's, I think being like Jessamyn, it's about, Having the image expanded. You know, like it's just, well, who else can be in this space? Who else gets to, and I think we're moving there. I think we're moving to a place where when we say yoga or acupuncture, there's just so many different presentations of it that no one phenotype like is the dominant association that we have, you know? 

[00:23:52] Josie: Right, right. Exactly. And for folks listening who don't know who Jessamyn Stanley is, what are their pronouns? Do you know? 

[00:24:00] Malori: Not off top. I don't. 

[00:24:01] Josie: I looked up on their Instagram and it didn't say, and I was like, no. That's where I always go to. 

[00:24:07] Malori: Yeah. I was like, as I go to my phone to look, oh my god. 

[00:24:12] Josie: Anyway, Jessamyn has created the Underbelly app, which is a yoga app that's wonderful. And Jessamyn makes yoga more accessible for queer folks, fat folks, Black and brown folks. Yeah so, just like you said, I think the important part is, is expanding that accessibility so it's not just, thin white cishet, you know, women who are really showcased in the white wellness industry.

[00:24:41] And then I'm also thinking about how until recently there weren't melanated ear seeds available. Do you have melanated ear seeds? At your school? I can't believe this is a new thing.

[00:24:54] Malori: I do. Well, I'm totally not surprised. I know Dr. Tanisha Dandridge also she is like one of my mentors. She's fantastic. And yeah, definitely did a lot of work to make those a thing. And is kind of working on reworking some of that because there, there was some issues with how long they last because they were latex free. And so that, that formula doesn't, doesn't seem to last as well as the latex kind.

[00:25:34] Yeah. Being latex free was really awesome because so many People of the Global Majority do have a sensitivity. 

[00:25:44] Josie: Oh, interesting. I didn't know that. 

[00:25:46] Malori: Yeah, yeah. It's just more likely. 

[00:25:50] Josie: It's more likely. Interesting. Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's so cool that you know her and are, yeah. Wow, that's so neat.

[00:25:59] Malori: Yeah. She's awesome. She's, so you should interview her next. 

[00:26:06] Josie: Yes. Ooh, I would love to. Yeah. And for folks who are listening who don't know what ear seeds are, do you wanna explain like what we're talking about, like the melanated ear seeds or tacs? 

[00:26:18] Malori: Sure. So ear seeds come from the vaccaria plant. It's a literal seed that is attached to an adhesive. And it goes on various points of the ear to essentially bring qi, stimulate qi to that region, which corresponds to different parts of our body. And if you were to think of, you know, the seed having the most potential, the most yang of of a plant or of any type of entity.

[00:26:52] That's why the seed is used. And once it's applied throughout the day, you can rub it a little bit until you start to feel a little tender, until you feel the need to stop And yeah, they're fantastic. Do you have a favorite, do you have a favorite place that you like to have an ear seed? 

[00:27:13] Josie: Yeah, I mean, I used to do nada protocol on some patients for addiction stuff, but now I do a lot of the points that correspond to the reproductive organs and systems since my focus is fertility. So I'll do like liver, kidney, spleen a lot and then I'll do like shenmen and parasympathetic nervous system.

[00:27:37] Those are probably my go-tos. Yeah. What about you? Do you have favorites? 

[00:27:43] Malori: I find myself, so the brain point, which is like at the anti-tragus. So for folks that may not know.

[00:27:53] Josie: Everyone's Googling anti tragus.

[00:27:59] Malori: Tragus might be familiar for your people cause it was a popular piercing spot. And so if you were to put your finger on that little flippy part that comes off from the side of your head that's your tragus. And then you go down a little bit and you'll find a little gap. That's the intertragic notch.

[00:28:17] And then as you go back towards, like into your ear, along the helix part, you'll find another bump and that's your anti tragus. And I like to stick my ear seeds on the back side of that. It's called the Brain Point. And it's kind of like a, yawn, bring myself back to. It's good for brain, it's good for pain all over.

[00:28:44] And so I like to massage ear seeds into that. I also find that I pull on my lobes a lot. Even before I knew anything about auricular acupuncture, it was a very much a calming thing. And what's interesting is like, oh, I was triggering my vagus nerve on the back of my ear when I was pulling, like, cuz I would press along the, the back of my ear and pull, yank my lobes down.

[00:29:10] Josie: Totally. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's so cool.

[00:29:14] Malori: Isn't it? It's like we do all of these things just naturally, and it's just like, yeah. Acupuncture point corresponds there. Yep. Yep, and there. Yep. So, like, you know. You know what you're doing, but you don't know what you're doing. 

[00:29:30] Josie: But some part of you knows. 

[00:29:32] Malori: Yeah. You know, the body knows what it needs.

[00:29:35] Josie: Yes, that's so true. I know when I was younger, I wanted to get my ears pierced. No, I wanted to get them double pierced and triple pierced and my mom wouldn't let me because she was like, there's acupuncture points there and we don't wanna pierce them.

[00:29:50] Malori: That's so awesome. 

[00:29:53] Josie: I was like, I wanna, I don't care. 

[00:29:56] Malori: I wanna be cool. 

[00:30:00] Josie: Totally. And then in acupuncture school, one of my professors, I remember, this is so long ago, now, my memory's getting a little fuzzy around it. But they were saying like, Ren eight, where the belly button is when you get your belly button pierced, that it can really drain your central qi.

[00:30:18] And I was like, that's fascinating. And you know how certain metals can give you, like gold, can tonify or reduce? And so they were saying if you do get your belly button pierced, make sure you put a gold piercing in it. 

[00:30:34] Malori: Y'all can't see my face right now, but it's doing things. Oh my gosh.

[00:30:41] Josie: I know. I was like, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, so at the, at the time I had a belly button piercing and it was stainless steel and I was so low on energy and I was like, maybe that's why. 

[00:30:54] Malori: Wow. Wow. Like so like really we could go anywhere. We can be in tattoo piercing shops and be like giving consult for where to give.

[00:31:05] Josie: Yes, yes, exactly. Go a little to the left, so you miss that point. 

[00:31:13] Malori: Hilarity. I love that. I had a professor. He taught us that the points move out of the way. 

[00:31:21] Josie: That's what one of my professors said. Yeah. Yeah. So I wonder if that's true. 

[00:31:27] Malori: Yeah, it's yeah, again, like it's just like, oh, so that was like, so how do you find where it went?

[00:31:34] Josie: Yeah, where did it go?

[00:31:38] Malori: Does it go one way or another? 

[00:31:44] Josie: Does it go left or right?

[00:31:45] Malori: Up or Down? Like, is it on a diagonal? How do we know these things? These are questions that need to be answered. 

[00:31:53] Josie: Exactly. Oh my gosh. That's so funny. They must have had a conference at some point to figure out the answer to that, and everyone's like, it just moves. It's fine. 

[00:32:05] Malori: I'm sure somebody has some reasoning depending on the constitutional factor of, you know?

[00:32:11] Josie: Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Along those lines I'm thinking too. So, this is a question I've been getting so much recently. I don't know why, like several different people have asked me about how male and female energies, you know, correspond to yin and yang and how we see that through the lens of non-binaryness.

[00:32:32] Like what people keep saying, asking me like what are your thoughts on yin and yang and how that relates to gender and the binary. Yeah, I've, I've tried to answer this all different ways, but I would love to hear your thoughts on this. 

[00:32:45] Malori: Fantastic. Josie, fantastic. First I'm just gonna preface this with, I don't know, and I also like to theorize and riff off of that stuff. That's a great, it's a great question and it is something that I've definitely have wondered about myself. And even like my child self knew that I was non-binary. I didn't know, like, you know, there wasn't anything.

[00:33:17] So much of our existence is about like having, being externally validated, Which you know, It's there for a reason. But I remember telling my dad like, we were playing catch, and I was like, see Daddy, I'm a boy and a girl. Like, you get the best in both worlds. And he was like, whatcha talking about?

[00:33:38] What are you talking about? You're my daughter. And you know, whatever. Yeah. It's so interesting. And I also remember being in high school and like it was ninth grade. And I was like, okay, try really hard to be a girl. Just try do the girl thing. Like I remember like telling myself that and I mean, I'd be hard pressed to ask if like there were, if there were other people that were doing that.

[00:34:09] I dunno, may, maybe it's a common thing, but it just. I was like, yeah, it just didn't come effortless for me. There was always a lot of effort. So, but in this, this question of like yin and yang and male and female, I really enjoyed the breakdown of the yin yang. So the, the entire circle is like the hole.

[00:34:38] And then you have yin and then you have yang. And that squiggly line in between is a symbol of movement. Like it's always moving. And so when we think about yin and yang as like these static things, like we're missing. So much of its essence. It's far more than just like the static hard thing.

[00:35:00] It's, we're always in flux. And so for when, when like that's applied to gender, I think that it is helpful to, especially for non-binary people, like it could be helpful to recognize the ways in which you're moving through these two ends of a continuum, but it's, you're never really fixed. So that, I think that's how I would kind of talk about it. 

[00:35:34] Josie: Oh, I love that. That is, I just had this really clear image in my mind of that yin yang symbol moving, you know, in a circle. Actually, there was this incredible 3D image video that someone shared with us when I was in school. And so it's like shifting in a three-dimensional plane.

[00:35:54] I'll try to find it. It was so cool. But yeah, I'm picturing that whole thing as gender in one person.Which I'd never thought about before. So like, everyone has like all of those aspects and it's constantly shifting. 

[00:36:09] Malori: And for everybody it shifts in different ways and I feel for people I can understand that like how ironed, like how starched out our mental schemas are. I mean, I told my grandma that I was non-binary. 

[00:36:34] Josie: How'd that go?

[00:36:38] Malori: Lord have mercy. She's like, well what you smoking? What you smoking out there? I was like, grandma, I don't smoke anything. Like, well, what tea you drinking? I know you be drinking tea. You know, she's like, well, you know, like, you gonna do what you gonna do. You always have. You always will.

[00:37:03] But it's still like, you know, oh, my granddaughter, and I leave allowances, you know, like for sure. I, I absolutely adore my grandmother. She is my favorite lady. And and I know, there's just some things, you know, just the fact that she loves my fiance, my female fiance, thank you. Yeah, she likes her more than me. Oh, how's Tiff-Tiff? Make sure she drives, make sure Mallory doesn't run off the road.

[00:37:43] Anyway, just being able to, to give the space and know that, like regardless of that external validation, like I know who I am and I'm, yeah, I'm far more comfortable with knowing who I am now and, and embodying that than when I was a child. But it's a, it's a learning process.

[00:38:04] I just, I hope for everyone, like, I sit in on Facebook groups , like non-binary parenting and non-binary transitioning, like learning myself. Sharing a little bit as I can. But really the overarching theme is just a lot of like, there's just so much hurt and so much lack of validation and while external validation is important, not having that external validation is a lot easier when you've really come to love and accept yourself as you are. 

[00:38:41] That journey looks different for everyone. I'm still working on it but like I've made like huge strides and I really just wish that for everyone. 

[00:38:55] Josie: Yeah, that's awesome. So I'd love to kind of to wrap up to talk about like how QTBIPGM folks can protect and advocate for themselves in healing, to get the healing that they need in white cishet wellness spaces.

[00:39:11] And I know we've kind of already talked about some things that you have done like as a student and in school, but I'm wondering if you have more to say about that. About how you've kind of learned to protect yourself mentally, emotionally, spiritually in the acupuncture world, so that maybe folks can try some of that as they navigate wellness spaces on their fertility journey.

[00:39:32] Malori: Whew. I think taking some time to figure out what your non-negotiables are is really important. Also remembering that you are a collaborator in this process. And so there are certain things, like interview your practitioner. Ask them, Hey, like I have this, this, and this.

[00:40:02] Do you actually feel like you'll be able to meet me where I am and honor where I am? And really listen to their answer. Sometimes if it's too hasty and like this is a person that isn't within our community. I don't know. I would just be like, huh, interesting. Are you like people pleasing? Are you desperate for a client? Like, what's that? 

[00:40:27] And potentially like, you know what? Thank you for bringing that to me. I'm gonna sit with those questions and then get back to you. I personally would really appreciate that from a practitioner. Because at least it's like, it's not just like an off the rip answer. Just remembering that you have so much agency in your process. And it's vital. 

[00:40:58] So just taking that time to figure out your non-negotiables. I remember like, and this is like not necessarily about my own like identity safety, but I had a therapist that was late to my Zoom telehealth things. I was like, look, I understand this is like a thing that's coming up for me, but like, if you're going to be late, can you let me know? Can you send me a text? Can you do something, you know, so that at least I know that I'm not forgotten or not being thought, you know, like it's careless, like that's important.

[00:41:32] Josie: Absolutely. I'm also curious. Yeah, I love that answer. Figuring out your non-negotiables and sticking to them and really listening to your gut when you get that response. Yeah, totally. And I'm curious too, if you know yet what you're gonna specialize in. 

[00:41:49] Malori: I'm not yet. Okay. This is what I think I'm gonna specialize in and we'll see what actually happens. Mental health is really important to me. And I think I really kind of came into the program with that in mind. Just from how I used acupuncture to help with my anxiety. Or with anxiety, not mine. I'm not owning that. I grew up with a parent with severe mental health issues, and sitting in classes and seeing that there are solutions and explanations for what's going on with a person.

[00:42:38] I was just in tears. No more good. Just really, really like bewildered. And also enthused to learn that those aspects of the medicines so that I could help people that are having shen, severe shen disturbances, right? I'm also really in into like the psycho-emotional, in the spiritual aspects of like how we store trauma and what that looks like. 

[00:43:22] I'm trying to get myself, like I'm studying more intensely orthopedic medicine. And I say that because like looking at where we are and where I'll likely be practicing in the US for a little while, if not most of my life. People tend to be more in touch with their physical pain. And so if I can meet them there and see if we can go a little deeper, like that would be really awesome. And that's kind of where I am at this point. 

[00:43:57] Josie: I love that. Yeah, that's really brilliant because I was thinking the same thing. As you were saying that I was like, Chinese medicine is so cool in that way that you do start with the physical and then you end up affecting so much more than that. And then also so much more than that ends up coming up. And I feel like mental health I mean, Chinese medicine has so much to offer mental health. I focus on fertility, but I, I often joke to my partner that I also feel like I'm a therapist. As well. 

[00:44:31] Malori: Oh yeah, oh yeah. 

[00:44:35] Josie: Oh, they're just so closely intertwined. Yeah. 

[00:44:40] Malori: They really are. Yeah, they really are. My cousin, she's studying for her naturopathic degree and. She's just like, so have you really thought about counseling? You should, you should really go on a, I'm like sigh. Will you stop like upping my student loans? Thanks. 

[00:44:59] Like, I'll gladly just link up with a few counselors and refer out. We can be a, you know, like I don't have to do it all. I was like, but they'll get what they get from me and then I'll tell them like, Hey, you should also see this person. 

[00:45:18] Josie: Yes, yes, exactly. I refer out all the time to therapists because I'm like, we can start a little bit, but then you know, there's more work to be done that we can't finish in an acupuncture session.

[00:45:30] Malori: Yeah. I was like, but bring me back some of those details so that we can start hitting these points. I just, I love this medicine so much. 

[00:45:43] Josie: I do too. Yeah, it is so cool. And I was gonna explain a term that you mentioned for folks who don't know, Shen disturbance is like, I don't know what would be the synonym of that would be just mental health. Stuff. 

[00:46:03] Malori: Yeah, so I guess, I guess we could say like like the shen is our ability to connect and respond to our reality. The disturbance is a lack of that ability. And so it can manifest in real, in, in different ways. That's not a continuum. 

[00:46:30] So, something where it's anxiety and depression, something where it is catatonic states, schizophrenia, Bipolar disorder. I have a friend from undergrad who is a psychiatrist just finishing up, just finished her residency. And she got to do an acupuncture round, like that's a part of her training.

[00:47:01] And I was just like, oh my gosh, this is awesome! I'm so glad that they're seeing the value in it and implementing it within treatment plans. Some of the things that, like, I think what's interesting about shen disturbances is that you can see it. When you're can't make eye contact with a person, or like when you try to look at them and they look away, or you look at them and it's like hollow.

[00:47:40] That we would read that as a shen disturbance and work on bringing that back and bringing that person back into themselves. 

[00:47:48] Josie: Right. Yeah. I love that. You are explaining things so much better than I would. 

[00:47:54] Malori: Really? It's only cause I'm like entrenched in the books right now, you know? Like it's student effects.

[00:48:01] Josie: I know. I love it. I'm like, wow, that is amazing. Like, like when you were talking about the seeds being the most yang part of the plant and that's why they have that energy that we would use on our ears. I was like, oh yeah. I like, I don't even know if I knew that or remembered it. 

[00:48:17] Malori: They're, these are all snippets of things that I've been taught.

[00:48:22] Josie: That's so cool. And like, just as a side note, it made me want to go back to using the vicarious seeds instead of the stainless steel balls, cause they also have that as an option. 

[00:48:33] Malori: Oh yeah, yeah, that's true. 

[00:48:35] Josie: Yeah, so I think I'll go back to the seeds now. 

[00:48:42] So I love to ask all my guests the same question at the very end. So in Chinese medicine, our fertility is referred to as our essence, as you know. The more we're able to get in touch with who we really are, or our essence, the more access we have to our fertile potential or creative power.

[00:49:02] So I'm wondering, do you have any personal practices or rituals in place that allow you to connect with your essence or what I call your Whole Self? 

[00:49:09] Malori: That's a great question. I'm building those. And acupuncture is a big part of that. Dance is a part of that. 

[00:49:22] Josie: Oh, nice. What kind of dance? 

[00:49:23] Malori: Bachata.

[00:49:26] Josie: What's that?

[00:49:29] Malori: Bachata? I have a history of sexual trauma and it was from a family member and I remember like dancing the juvenile back that ass up. And really like getting in low with it, right? And he was just like, yeah, no, absolutely. Stop that. Don't ever do that. Blah, blah, blah. And then several years later, he raped me, like all through high school.

[00:50:00] And so like I had dissociated for my body, right? I dissociated from myself. Like it was just. But I also, really I still like protected him in various ways and now all of it is out. But for myself and like really kind of like bringing back all the parts that I had, like shunted off.

[00:50:30] Dance was like, I mean, when I tell you I had like, I had lost all my rhythm. Like I was dogged in high school for not being able to dance. You know, like how you gonna be, how you not gonna be, you ain't got no rhythm. My friends are trying to teach me, you know, could not, could not get it. And as I've like, come to really just like, know more of who I am.

[00:50:59] Dance has come back around for me to get close to and to embody like the sexiness and the sensuality that like bachata. I don't know if you've, have you ever danced bachata? 

[00:51:11] Josie: No, what is it? I'm unfamiliar with that. 

[00:51:13] Malori: Yeah. It's a Dominican dance and it was actually pretty, it's kind of seen as like ghetto or like lowly, like if you were to look in class systems, but it's, it's become a lot more popular or like, it's like backyard dancing.

[00:51:32] Because it's very sensual. But it's being embraced and being taught all over the world. Now in step with salsa. Salsa's more common. I think that's that's outta of Cuba. But yeah bachata is you. I'll send you some, I'll send you some accounts. It, yeah. It's so much fun. 

[00:51:55] Josie: Oh, I would love to check that out.

[00:51:58] Malori: And yeah, I live like a mile away from a studio and they teach both and I did 30 days of classes. I tend to go hard. I tend to go hard. 

[00:52:12] Josie: Ugh. Well, I love that answer and I have loved this conversation. This was so fun. I learned so much. 

[00:52:19] Malori: Thank you. I learned so much. I appreciate you so much for yeah, for reaching out. Thanks for talking to me. 

[00:52:27] Josie: Absolutely. 

[00:52:31] Y'all, I'm so excited to let you know that Fertile registration is open. Fertile is a queer, trans, and non-binary centered five week online program for folks with wombs to reclaim power over their fertility journey and conceive using my Whole Self Fertility Method. Healthcare practitioners and community workers, you are welcome to join us and become certified in the Whole Self Fertility Method.

[00:52:57] Head over to intersectional fertility.com/fertile to check out all the program details and register now. Sliding Scale is available for all, and scholarships are available for Black, Indigenous, and People of the Global Majority. Join us, it's gonna be so much fun. I'll see you there. 

[00:53:17] Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility Podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your whole self fertility method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz. 

[00:53:34] If you like the show and want to hear more, tap subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. And please leave us a review, it really truly helps. The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and produced by Rozarie Productions with original music by Jen Korte.

All content offered through The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is created for informational purposes only, it is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.