Episode 39 - What Can You Expect From Joining Fertile? with Jovan Sage and Meenadchi
Jovan Sage (she/they) and Meenadchi (she/her) are two previous participants of Fertile, and certified in the Whole Self Fertility Method™. Today, they join Josie to describe their experiences in the program and give insight for listeners considering joining the upcoming cohort.
[ID: A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 39: Meenadchi @with.meenadchi and Jovan Sage @jovansage.]
Jovan's Website and Instagram.
Meenadchi's Website and Instagram. Find the book Decolonizing Non-Violent Communication here. Subscribe to her email list here.
Fertile registration is open!
Episode Transcript:
Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.
[00:00:00] Josie: I am Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our whole selves.
[00:00:16] Meenadchi Is a somatic healing practitioner whose work centers the softness of meeting our best self and deepening into our collective light. Using a blend of constellation therapy and non-violent communication, Meenadchi supports inquisitive individuals and entrepreneurial change makers in reconnecting with the intuitive wisdom of your body so that we can co-create intergenerational healing by changing the way we speak to ourselves, each other, and the universe.
[00:01:04] Meenadchi holds a clinical license in occupational therapy and has historically served communities impacted by gender-based violence, complex trauma and serious mental illness. She is the author of Decolonizing Non-Violent Communication.
[00:01:21] Jovan Sage is an alchemist, energy healing practitioner and full spectrum doula. Sage focuses on fertility, sex, and reproductive loss support for folks with wombs. Guiding people to discover their alchemy by reclaiming their connection to themselves, land, and spirit.
[00:01:48] All right. Welcome back to the podcast everyone. I'm super excited to welcome on two friends of mine, Jovan and Meenadchi. Hello and welcome.
[00:01:59] Jovan: Hey there.
[00:02:01] Meenadchi: Hi.
[00:02:04] Josie: So great to have you both on. So will each of you share with us your pronouns and where you're joining us from today?
[00:02:12] Jovan: I'll go first. My name is Jovan Sage and I am based in Savannah, Georgia. The pronouns that I use are she and they interchangeably.
[00:02:23] Josie: Okay, cool.
[00:02:24] Meenadchi: And I am Meenadchi. I use she/her pronouns and currently based on Ohlone territory.
[00:02:30] Josie: Cool. Will each of you share a little bit about the work that you do and what drew you to it?
[00:02:35] Jovan: This is Jovan and the work that I do is actually working one-on-one with folks on their fertility and sex journey. I am a full spectrum doula. But you know, that fertility and sex stuff is so juicy that I just, I absolutely love that kind of work.
[00:02:54] And then, as you know, as an intuitive and an energy worker doing that one-on-one service-based work as well as education.
[00:03:02] Josie: Oh, so cool.
[00:03:03] Meenadchi: And this is Meenadchi. I do a blend of things. The basis of my work is non-violent communication with a decolonial lens. And then probably what I imagine we're talking about, be talking about more here in this context is the work around healing and releasing intergenerational trauma with the somatic modality called family constellation therapy.
[00:03:24] And there's lots of different types of intergenerational trauma that are stored in the body in this particular context. Working with stuff related to pregnancy loss.
[00:03:35] Josie: Yeah. Awesome. So what compelled each of you to join Fertile or to want to join Fertile? And what did you each hope to get out of it?
[00:03:45] Jovan: So for me, the reason I joined Fertile is because as a practitioner, you know, working with folks on their own journey, I just recognize that it had been some time before I had started to really dive back into my own fertility. At the center of my practice as this idea that fertility isn't just for people who wanna get pregnant, but that it's for everybody.
[00:04:10] Like it is a vital sign. But somehow, just over the last couple of years I'd been on this huge healing journey and so it was time for me to come back to this area of my own personal life. To talk about gender, to talk about my queerness, to talk about my Blackness, and to really, expand into what does fertility mean for me on this side of my journey?
[00:04:39] Josie: Oh, I love that. That's so beautiful.
[00:04:41] Meenadchi: Yeah. I'm gonna, I cosign on the loving that and the pieces around, like fertility being for everybody. And you know, Josie, you talk about this also in the work, but just like what is the essence of birthing that everybody carries regardless of what it is that we're birthing or bringing into the world?
[00:04:59] It's just such lusciousness there. And I think for me, what brought me to Fertile, there's a couple things. One, I'm part of the Josie fan club. I was thinking about this like, you know, I was like, Beyoncé has the beehive. Josie knows me and Maggie, and like a bunch of us.
[00:05:16] So one is just the Josie fan club and then the other thing is, you know because a portion of my work is working with people, who are navigating their own fertility journeys and what it is like to have experienced loss. And then I think a lot of times people don't think about understand even clock the way intergenerational loss sits in the body.
[00:05:40] That when everybody comes from a lineage that has experienced loss and because loss is so stigmatized, it gets stuffed down, and then it gets stored in the body, and then it gets passed down, and then it affects your own fertility journey.
[00:05:53] And so while my sort of area of expertise and knowledge base is in understanding how intergenerational trauma is stored in the body and processes to release that trauma, there's a lot about fertility specifically that I didn't know. That I don't know, and that I wanted to learn from you, Josie from a queer, trans, like People of the Global Majority lens.That was good for me and my work.
[00:06:20] Jovan: And I just wanna touch on something that I think can often get overlooked and you know, and I find this with my one-on-one clients, but just in the larger conversation of that, if you are on a fertility journey and you're specifically looking to get pregnant, that loss is often so tied up in there.
[00:06:42] And that it's so important to like, know that and not in a place of like, oh, we don't wanna say anything because we don't wanna jinx anything. Versus like, no, this is like a part of this. This is so intertwined and I see this come up in my life over and over again.
[00:07:02] I am a rainbow baby. So my mom lost a pregnancy before me and actually I think before most of my siblings. And I was actually there for one of her miscarriages and was there holding her hand, as a little 10, 11 year old, like terrified of like, what's, what's happening?
[00:07:26] How, this is so scary. And also I understand that my role right now is just to kind of like hold this space. And then for me, my own pregnancy loss in 2018 was actually this huge portal for me in diving in deeper into my own healing work as an herbalist, but, also personally, and becoming a full spectrum doula.
[00:07:52] Actually, fertility doula was my first doula training because I was just like, I wanted to just understand so much more around how to help folks navigate what fertility means for them.
[00:08:09] Josie: Yeah. Oh, thank you for bringing that up, Jovan. That is so true. I feel like probably 90% of the folks that I work with, we are also working with past loss and specifically around pregnancy or birth or fertility and grieving.
[00:08:30] Yeah. So much of that. Yeah, it's such a good point. That needs to be destigmatized and brought to the surface in people's fertility journeys for sure. And how cool that something else was birthed from that. That's so neat. I love that. So cool. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that.
[00:08:47] Did either of you have any hesitations about joining Fertile?
[00:08:51] Meenadchi: I didn't. I don't think so. I think sometimes I'll often ask a question of, is now the right time? But it wasn't a question of do I wanna take this, you know, this offering.
[00:09:02] Josie: Right. Cool.
[00:09:04] Jovan: Yeah. For me, there was hesitation. And I think for me the hesitation was more around like, okay, do I wanna do another thing? And do I do this thing?
[00:09:15] I wasn't actually sure I was gonna certify because I was just like, I really just wanna be in it. I wanna be in it. And is this the right time? Is this, you know, like I was looking at my bank account and I was like, mmm, not really the best time. But it was just like, there was just this thing inside of me that was just like, things may not be perfect.
[00:09:39] But this is something that you need to explore for yourself. Not to get another certification, not to do more studies. But to like really like dive back into the heart of me of my own fertility journey.
[00:09:57] Josie: Oh, I love that. That's so beautiful.
[00:09:59] What changes have, have either of you noticed since being in Fertile in your body, mind, spirit or emotions or that you noticed during Fertile?
[00:10:11] Jovan: So for me, I like, I wanna speak first to the actual experience itself. So for me it was so. energizing to just to one, to be exploring, you know, and re-exploring concepts that I'd known, or concepts that I'd worked with, but also just to be like, oh my goodness, I didn't know that. Like with the traditional Chinese medicine, I've done a lot of work with Ayurveda and other systems, but I haven't really had a chance to dive in the way that we did.
[00:10:41] And as a herb nerd, like I was just like, oh my goodness, this is so great, this is so juicy! I love it. But that it was so approachable for folks who maybe weren't herbalists or who, you know, who weren't familiar with some of these concepts. And so having that group interaction. Like I love the lives.
[00:11:00] I think in so many other ways I'm probably zoomed out. Yes. You know, from so many other things. But like that like check-in that we would have was just like, okay, here are all these other people and, and we're all like learning these things and we all have these questions, but we also have so much knowledge to share with one another.
[00:11:19] And experiences to share with one another. And so I just felt that that was just so nourishing for me to like be in that space, and to have people like just also kind of lighting up those ideas of, of what fertility means to them as well.
[00:11:39] Josie: Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. What about you, Meenadchi?
[00:11:44] Meenadchi: So first co-sign all that energy, yes, plus one. And I think there's a couple things that come up. One is like, Greater attunement. I think the thing that I love about somatic work in general, which Fertile really is because you're learning about the body and connecting dots about. Whether you're trying to get pregnant or not. Right. I came in as a practitioner who's not trying to get pregnant.
[00:12:10] But there's still information for me about my body. It's not just about the bodies of my clients and like, so for example, this cycle, my period is doing something really weird. And then I leaned in on some of just like the energy and essence of Fertile, of just talking to my womb in a different way, trusting my wombs autonomy, listening to what my womb has to say and speak.
[00:12:33] And I think certainly there's like medicinal, you know, I've been been told forever, clean your liver, clean your liver, clean your liver by so many different practitioners. And then, you know, like tell me, reviewing the content in Fertile is, like yes, okay, clean my liver. So one is definitely like a sense of attunement to my own body, which then informs the work personally and professionally.
[00:12:52] And then I think the other thing, and again, leaning into the Josie Fan Club. Your vibrational energy is so tremendously gentle. Which is really important I think, for work that is, can be really painful or grief oriented. And so I also feel like I learned new tools of how to be, how to move, and those came through, through the recordings, through the beautiful aesthetics. Gorgeous, gorgeous PowerPoint, gorgeous slides, gorgeous videos, gorgeous things.
[00:13:29] And then yes, the energy of the lives where we could come in with all of our questions. And I, for one, really like the certification questions because they felt really nicely, it's like I really like scaffolded things. That help you integrate learning and put puzzle pieces together.So I enjoyed them for that.
[00:13:51] Josie: Oh, nice. Oh, this feels so good to get this feedback. I just wanna, like, I'm trying to soak it all in. So thank you so much. And also I wanna give a shout out to the design team that I work with that does all my graphics and stuff.
[00:14:04] They are absolutely incredible. That's why all my stuff is so pretty. They are Studio DBJ, which stands for Don't Be Jealous, which I think is so great. It's such a good name. Oh, and then you kind of both touched on this already, but I'm wondering if, if you have more to say on this, like what features did you like best about Fertile and why? Or if there are any more that, that you haven't already mentioned?
[00:14:27] Jovan: Yeah, I think the other part for me that was really exciting and I've been trying to kind of like figure out why. So, and I think it's like the things like the acupressure and just like the movement that you incorporated. So, you know, talking about like that somatic aspect of it.
[00:14:45] Not just like, oh, here are these points, but like, here are these points and here's how you can do it with yourself. And here if you are partnered, here's how you can do it with your partner. I think for those of us who, you know, for me, usually when I'm working with like those kind of points, it's usually I'm on like an acupuncturist table.
[00:15:05] And usually I go to community acupuncture but with our concurrent pandemics happening, I just have not gone. I just don't feel safe being in a not greatly ventilated room with like six other people laying down for an hour. Just doesn't feel safe. But like with these like tools and with the little diagrams and everything, it was just like, oh, okay.
[00:15:29] There are some ways in which I can actually care for myself in these ways, which, you know, when I do find myself returning to like an acupuncturist table, I feel like I have a greater understanding of what they're doing. Not that I can replicate what they're doing. But that I can be like, oh, like when I tried this, like this is how I felt and I felt better maybe.
[00:15:53] So I feel like it empowers you to have this co-creative or co-healing practice, with these things. Not that you're gonna go out and like, I'm replacing this person. But that, here are these tools, here are these modalities, here is this information which just creates a greater informed you, when you are working with a professional.
[00:16:20] And I just think that that is so important. It's so important, it's so empowering. Like you get to be a part of this, you get to co-create this. This is just amazing, and I think it should be the standard.
[00:16:33] Josie: Totally. I think that's so brilliant to bring that up because I'm thinking, it's reminding me of how I felt when I started tracking my cycle and knowing more about my cycle before I went into doctor's appointments about fertility stuff.
[00:16:50] Where it was like, oh, they're not the only one that knows all the information. I know some information too about my own body that they don't know. And so it's like, yeah, like you said, more of a co-creative process. Yeah.
[00:17:04] Meenadchi: And I will add in the same of like just the invitation to creativity. Cause I think like a lot of things, I feel, I feel like there can be a lot of rigidity. Around fertility, around fertility journeys, around how you're supposed to, like, there's a lot of supposed tos. Because of the breadth of content that's there, and not just the breadth of content, but also the choice points that you as a teacher offer in terms of here are the different tools you can use.
[00:17:34] It's not like these are the things you must do. There's an invitation and space for creativity in terms of how anyone may want to implement the different aspects and, and medicinal qualities. And also plus one on the like, the more informed you are, we are anyone, everyone is, it increases the strength of like what can be collaboratively developed.
[00:18:01] Josie: Totally. I mean, I feel like acupuncture in particular is a little bit like, it's like how I feel when I like take my car into the mechanic where I'm like, I literally know nothing. Like you're just gonna have to tell me what you think. Cause I don't know, and it's vulnerable feeling that way cause you really give over a lot of your power.
[00:18:20] I feel that way at the dentist. I know nothing about dental stuff. So yeah, that's, I mean, how different would that be? I'm just thinking of my kind of a scenario where I would be treating someone who came in, who knew kind of a baseline of Chinese medicine and acupuncture.
[00:18:40] And then we're both sort of, contributing to their treatment plan. Like that's huge. What a different experience. Yeah. That's cool. Thanks for bringing that up. So I'm also wondering, let's see, if there was any specific content in the program that you liked the best or found the most useful?
[00:19:01] Meenadchi: I think I will say, not that it took me, but like the more I go back into the video content, the more I review the slides, the richer they become. Because there's such a wealth of information there. And then I really like connecting dots of like, oh, this is like a kidney issue, but oh, look at how the kidney affects the liver
[00:19:28] You know what I mean? Things like that, it feels really cool to know. So I will say for me and yeah, the more I look at the slides and the video recordings, I receive a lot from them.
[00:19:43] Jovan: And for me, so part of my professional background is working in food as a former restaurant owner as well as a farmer, and chef. And so food as medicine has been at the core of my life for a long time. And it is also so connected to my own diagnosis, like in my early twenties with polycystic ovarian syndrome. And so where I had to do my own education around, what does it mean to like work with this, to work with my body, to work with all these different systems?
[00:20:18] And so for me it was just like, okay, taking a different look at food. Even though I know so much. I work with people around this all the time, but it was just like, I was learning so many new things or being reminded of other things. And so, I find that for so many people, this can be one of the biggest places where they struggle.
[00:20:42] It's like, what's on their plate? What's in their fridge? What's the right thing to eat? And there's so much conflicting information, but the information that was here in Fertile was just so beautiful and nourishing. And I feel would be so super helpful for so many people, like, who are trying to just navigate it, and not navigate it in a rigid way.
[00:21:08] But in a, in a way that's just like, okay, here's how I want to shift my plate, how I wanna shift my pantry. And also like, you know, one of the things I understand is like, it can't just be one person in the household. It's a group project, food is a group project. And so I just felt like that part of it was just so like beautiful and tasty.
[00:21:33] And the other thing that I'm actually very excited about, cuz I hadn't really had a lot of experience with it, was the Qigong recommendation. So I am an energy practitioner and I do so many different things working with energy and I took your recommendation, did this session, like did a full session, and oh my goodness, the energy that it moved. My body felt so different.
[00:22:05] And as somebody who's done yoga for so many years, I was like this, it brings in that somatic, it brings in the energy, and it was just so beautiful for me and my body that it's actually something that I'm gonna dive deeper into. And so I just, I really love that just getting to explore these, these different things and getting a chance to actually get recommendations like, for me as a queer Black woman, like to get recommendations that would be resonant.
[00:22:36] And not just like, oh, go look on YouTube for X, Y, Z, and then you're just like, ah, this person is, yeah. It's all triggering. Versus like, oh, I'm like practicing with somebody who knows my community, who can speak to me in a way that like resonates. And so I just felt that that was just another beautiful part of the program.
[00:22:59] Josie: Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. Thank you for bringing both of those things up. I feel a lot of desire to be extra sensitive around food recommendations. And then also around what I like to call body movement instead of exercise. Cause I just, I'm like allergic to the word exercise. I've always struggled with that.
[00:23:25] So that's really good feedback. Something I started doing with the last cohort that you all were in was to call the food portion of it nourishment. At the end, everyone gets a PDF download where you can fill out your customized fertility worksheet. And the original version of it had said diet for each phase of the menstrual cycle.
[00:23:47] And I was like, ugh, that word just like rubs me the wrong way. And so I changed it to nourishment cause I wanna be like, for folks who also don't wanna even look at the food recommendations and just focus on other ways of nourishing their body, they can put that in there instead.
[00:24:04] So I'm wondering how have you benefited from Fertile and more specifically did either of you have any like big revelations or light bulb moments?
[00:24:15] Jovan: So I think for me, one of the biggest light bulb moments, and it had been something that I had actually been struggling with. Which is probably why I was hesitant, was this like, I actually turned 40 earlier this year, and I am most definitely single.
[00:24:35] And I had been kind of tussling with this idea of just like saying it out loud that I really don't plan on having children. Which is, I, one, just look at all my life. Like I look in my thirties, and that struggle of being pregnant and of having that pregnancy loss.
[00:25:01] Of all the work that I did around fertility that was so geared towards getting pregnant or making my body ready for pregnancy. Like just so much energy went into this idea. And to be on this other side and just being like, is that actually what I want for my life? And so like this, you know, it was mind blowing, you know?
[00:25:31] For me was just like, I just like how much time, how much energy I could have freed from my life. To have been able to like approach my fertility from a place of like, this is a vital sign and this is important, versus like, am I ever gonna get pregnant? And so for me, Fertile was just a really great place to explore what that looks like.
[00:25:57] To explore, feeling into that for myself, as you know, well I'm on my own gender journey as a non-binary femme. And so, what does that mean to like have these parts, to have this body. To be tending to it in these like very beautiful and nourishing ways.
[00:26:18] And also be like, oh, just because I'm valuable. I matter. Not because I'm about to be a vessel for another living being. And so for me, that was that huge, like just having that space to like be able to expand into, you know, what it means for me to show up. Not as a practitioner, but as like a person who's always tended to their fertility in a very hard way.
[00:26:51] Not as punishment, but like kind of in that vein of like, why won't my body, you know? And for folks who don't know, like polycystic ovarian syndrome is a reproductive issue, but it's also an endocrine issue as well.
[00:27:09] So it's like this combination. And so I think I've done all the things to like, punish my body. Punish my body, you know, like I've been paleo, like no bread, like, exercise, exercise. Here's Metformin, Spironolactone. Like, you know, we're gonna throw everything at this thing versus like, no, I'm actually just gonna listen to my body.
[00:27:34] I'm actually gonna feel into what it wants right now. I'm gonna feel into where there may be imbalances, but not in a place of like, I'm going to punish you, but like, I'm going to celebrate you. And also give you the space to like where you need to grieve. You can grieve and allow that to move through you versus stuffing it all down.
[00:27:58] Josie: Oh my gosh. That is so incredibly powerful and so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that.
[00:28:07] Meenadchi: Yes, also, thank you cuz there are things, I think light bulbs that maybe I hadn't. I hadn't been holding. Right. Sometimes we hide from our light bulbs. And so Jovan, there were things that you said that kind of like popped them out for me.
[00:28:22] So I think for me professionally, there were so many insights around more information about how and why intergenerational trauma is stored in the body and what grief looks like in the system. Like I remember, gosh, I hope I have my information accurate, but Josie, since you're live, you can correct me, you know what I mean?
[00:28:41] But like learning about the ways, you know, for example, if something is off with the liver and the liver is not able to, thoroughly process estrogen through, than the way estrogen gets recycled back into the body. And then what that does to the womb space. And for, you know, all the different wo conditions that are related to higher estrogen levels.
[00:29:09] And then right populations that are more impacted, for example, by PCOS, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. That also in tandem have a huge history of intergenerational trauma. And so for me, in my work, I'm not necessarily making interventions at the level of like making a modification to the liver to release or process the way that estrogen is stored in the body.
[00:29:31] But, people often aren't aware of like the contracts that they're carrying unconsciously of how, for example, we have made a commitment to hold all the trauma of those who have come before us. So it gave me more insights around like, okay, these are the type of, you know, in my Family Constellation work, those kind of like therapeutic interventions to invite people to consider how are you holding grief in your lungs or how are you holding the grief in your womb space from many who have come before you?
[00:30:05] And then what are the contracts that need to be released? Why are you holding, is there a commitment to hold on to illness in order to honor those who have come before in order to honor the losses that have previously gone lost? So I think for me, professionally, there's that piece, just more information.
[00:30:25] And then personally, Jovan, I can't remember the exact sentence you said, but something about I'm not going to have children like for me personally, that also is a thing. Josie, the last time I was on your podcast, we had been talking about my own fertility journey and desires and the partner I had at that time. And the queer pregnancy journey that was like on the table. And then that partnership ended and it was really hard for me.
[00:30:58] And it has been hard, to not be pregnant or to not have the certain things that I wanted. And also now having different ways of like, connecting with my children on a spirit level, connecting with my body, connecting with my womb space. I think the more we destigmatize and the more we normalize everything, kind of like Jovan was saying about loss. Like loss is a normal part of fertility journeys, even though it doesn't get addressed or shared in those ways.
[00:31:31] So much of fertile is about being comfortable and in love with being in your body. And so it's like what are the ways we can fall more in love with my body exactly as it is. Because that's the thing that's actually gonna birth, fertility, whatever that fertility is.
[00:31:47] Like, the more in love I am with this being entity, you know, molecular construction. The gooder it's gonna be
[00:31:55] Josie: Aw. I love that. Yes. Capital Yes to all that, as well.
[00:32:01] Do you both feel that Fertile has given you the knowledge, support, and skills to feel more in control and empowered, maybe not on your own fertility journey, but also supporting others on their fertility journey?
[00:32:17] Jovan: Absolutely. I think it just kind of widened the view in a lot of ways. I'm actually dual trained as a fertility doula. With my first training was actually with the National Black Doulas Association, so actually training specifically with other black women and femmes around the history of our own fertility, working through trauma, all of that kind of stuff.
[00:32:46] And so for me that was super important, but I just felt like this took that and just expanded it in this much bigger way. Which, when I'm working with my queer and trans folks, that it's just like, okay, here we are. Let's dive a little bit deeper. And maybe there's some different things that we can try that maybe we wouldn't have, I wouldn't have necessarily tried before.
[00:33:13] I think one of the things that was really beautiful, which is actually an active part of my practice when I'm working either one-on-one, cuz I do work with folks who are single parents by choice. But, when I'm working with my little queer trans families, is like this idea of the altar.
[00:33:29] So I actually, especially with Black folks of just like, let's talk about like, what does it mean to build an altar to your fertility and to your journey. And no matter, what your spiritual practice is, but just like, let's talk about what's on there. What feels resonant, what doesn't? What feels like fertility for you?
[00:33:57] And so to see parts of that reflected in Fertile was just really beautiful and affirming for me. And also with the loss too. Like I actually put, so I had my miscarriage in 2018 and actually I finally put my little one on my ancestors' altar last October.
[00:34:17] And so again, this spirit like, there's of course some energetic work that I'd been doing over the last couple of years to fully release that soul. And for me just to like, put that, and she was a little girl, so, you know, to put that little girl on my altar and to acknowledge that loss. Also with that idea of fertility, the cowry shells, the honey, like all of those other kind of things of just like there's this balance. And so really touching into people's like cultural and spiritual practices I think is just so important when we're talking about being on this journey.
[00:35:04] Josie: Yeah. Wow. That's so beautiful.
[00:35:06] Meenadchi: Yeah, and I think for me, probably just one of the biggest things that I received or that you know, got amplified and encouraged is that your journey isn't wrong. Right, your journey isn't wrong. I don't even think I have any, I don't think I have any. Think I got a greater insight than that?
[00:35:29] Josie: That's it, thanks for coming on the podcast. I love it.
[00:35:35] So how did it feel, and we've talked a little bit about this already, but again, I'm just wondering if there's more to say around this. How did it feel being in a program that was centered, that was queer, trans, non-binary centered, and especially for folks, Black, indigenous, and people of the global majority?
[00:35:50] Jovan: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Like full-bodied yes. I mean, like, maybe that's my mic drop moment. Okay. But that is just, it's so important. It's so important to be centered.
[00:36:10] To be centered. To see your experience reflected. To see other folks like, even if it's not, you know, for me as a Black woman, like even if it's not other Black folks, just seeing everyone showing up and just having this beautiful connection, but also like hearing people's connections to their culture.
[00:36:37] So that's part of the live aspect of it, of just like hearing people's connections to their own culture. Just made it feel so much more richer. So much more richer and deeply connected to the fact that we are, we're global peoples. Come on, y'all like come through. And so I just, I absolutely love that and just like felt held.
[00:37:05] Josie: Aw, that's awesome. Thank you, Jovan.
[00:37:08] Meenadchi: Plus one to this. And I think sometimes, it's like a thing of, I feel like in the last few years, particularly I've been really fortunate that many of the spaces that I've been in and people that I've had the opportunities to study and learn from have been queer, trans, Black, Indigenous, Brown folks. You know what I mean? So it almost, there's a way I'm like, how else would it have been? You know what I mean?
[00:37:36] Yes. And I know, I know, I see Jovan, I see you making a face. I know, I know, I know. So, yes. Maybe what I'm saying is it is, it does feel nice to develop a new standard of normal, or like a new standard of care. That feels like a good baseline.
[00:37:56] Jovan: Well, and I think especially as we're talking about like gender and gender expansiveness, you know, I can tell you there's been spaces where I've been in that are mostly like Black folks to where, and even Black queer folks to where the assumption is that we're all women.
[00:38:16] And that we all like resonate with this divine feminine energy. And I've felt that in my own trainings, you know, I'm a level two sex doula. And so I was like, this, just all this talk about this around the divine feminine and this and this. I'm like, this is not resonating with me.
[00:38:36] At all. And the two folks who were teaching it were both queer and lesbian women. So I think we can't take it for granted that there is this space to where we are talking about queerness, where we are talking about trans folks, and trans folks are there, representing themselves and that we're talking about gender, and we're talking about gender expansiveness.
[00:39:04] And being in our bodies and ways that feel comfortable to us and talking about it in a way that is like, no, we're gonna include everybody. Like we're all here. We're all going through this in just very different ways. Right? But that we should be representing.
[00:39:22] Josie: Totally. Yeah. I think fertility in particular has such a, yeah, it can just get so feminized and gendered. And yeah, boy, it's, it's really rampant. So, yeah. I'm glad, thanks for pointing that out. So you both have become certified in the Whole Self Fertility Method, Meenadchi, you're very close. Which is an option that I offer in Fertile for healthcare practitioners and community workers to become certified in the Whole Self Fertility Method.
[00:40:01] So how has getting certified in the Whole Self Fertility Method supported or strengthened the work that you do? Or how do you think it will?
[00:40:09] Meenadchi: Do you want my hot take answer?
[00:40:10] Josie: Yes. Hot take, go.
[00:40:13] Meenadchi: I don't believe in certifications. I don't trust them. Like, you know what I mean? So many people I know with so many letters after they name just like can't act like, just at, you know, whatever.
[00:40:23] And I also know that certifications build trust with clients who may not have an understanding of something beforehand, or are looking for something to build a base of trust with, I trust you. I trust your certification method. Just as I trust, like king's certification work.
[00:40:43] So I think what I might answer is that it does feel good to be certified by you, that that builds like an inner knowing, an inner trust for me as a practitioner, that there are tools that I can adequately embody and provide for clients. And then I think that energy inside of us as a practitioner, that feels important. So I think that's what my answer is to this one.
[00:41:06] Jovan: I love that answer. Yeah. And as somebody who has a lot of certifications, many of which that I don't even bother sharing with folks. I felt like this one, because it wasn't like I was sitting in a class being taught on how to teach this thing.
[00:41:26] It was literally, you come in and you embody this learning. And I think that that's for me was a huge thing of just like, you know, you can go become a, a health coach. You can go do all these kind of things, but are you living it? Are you embodying it? Did you take yourself through it? Was something that was so important to me, which is why I, you know, I didn't actually come into it saying, I'm going to certify.
[00:41:55] I knew it was an option and I was just like, okay. If it resonates, great. But because I wanted to come into it in a place of like Jovan, go through it. Participate, actively participate, show up to the lives, take the recommendations, and like, oh, and I just, I'm totally, a sheets like handout person. So the updated form, PDF form, that's like, here we're gonna plan out like during this part of your cycle, like what the recommendations are and like everything else.
[00:42:37] And I was just like, this is so juicy. If all I do is treat myself, this is the most juiciest thing that I've ever come across. And so I see those tools as being really super beautiful. Like for the clients that I'm gonna be working with and helping them on their journey.
[00:42:58] I actually talked to one of my former clients from last year, who are still on their fertility journey. Super cute, Black queer couple, and you know, a lot of things have changed in their life and so they're having to figure out a different way. And so I'm just like, you know what?
[00:43:13] You don't even have to to pay me. Like, I just wanna work with you for like, the next six weeks to like, help y'all restart your journey. And I wanna bring in these tools because I just feel like they would be so super beautiful and resonant for y'all. And, you know, so like for me that like that was it for me.
[00:43:34] Was just like, would I be willing to like go back to people that I love, people who I consider family and like, share this with 'em. And it's like, 100%. Yes.
[00:43:45] Josie: Ugh, what an endorsement. Thank you. So I'm wondering what would you each of you like to say to folks who might be thinking about joining Fertile?
[00:43:58] Jovan: I think for me, the thing that I wanna say is this investment in yourself is so important and, and I don't say that lightly. I have been through the girl boss rhetoric. Like, you know, all of that like, just do it. Invest in yourself, invest in your own fertility, like show up to the lives with your partner.
[00:44:21] You both go through it. If you are partnered, go through it. If you're single, go through it. And give yourself that. Before you do another fertilization process or, you do anything else. You invest in anything else, you know, besides, you know, some prenatal vitamins, like, but, but just like, I think it's gonna like, open folks world to what's possible for them to own in their own experience.
[00:44:54] And so much of the fertility world is about handing off your sovereignty to someone else. And oftentimes, they don't care. They don't care about you. And you know, as your experience is just not always going to be like reflected. And especially for my folks who are in the south or in smaller towns to where we're not even acknowledged as being non-binary or trans or queer.
[00:45:30] Having that grounding like in yourself and in your sovereignty and in your own fertility is going to be so important when you walk through the doors of that fertility clinic or you walk through the doors of that fertility specialist because you will be gaslit to the high heavens.
[00:45:48] And so, again, if you're specifically on your fertility journey to like get pregnant. Like it's a marathon, it is not a sprint. And so you have to be spiritually, physically, grounded in yourself and your experience so that you come out the other side whole. And ready to actually steward, you know, the new life that you wanna bring into the world.
[00:46:15] Josie: Wow, is that true. Yes. Yeah. And I wanna just say too, you had mentioned to join it with your partner if you're partnered. And yes, that partners do get to join Fertile for free. So if you are partnered, and also if you have more than one partner, they're all welcome to join for free and go through the program with you. Yeah.
[00:46:35] What were you gonna say Meenadchi?
[00:46:37] Meenadchi: Yeah. Okay. A couple things. So one, I think that also is like one of the nice most playful things. Right, about there aren't assumptions that you only have one partner, you may have multiple, whatever the iteration of like your family looks like is welcome in the space.
[00:46:53] And that's really rare and really nice. And I think to answer the question, I think I have three answers. If you're a practitioner who works in fertility at all, do it. Any type of practitioner of any clinical licensure, whatever, whatever background, who engages with fertility.
[00:47:14] Do it so that you have more tools in your pockets for your clients. Period point, hands down. If you haven't yet begun your fertility journey, but know that it is something that you want. I will also say, do it. I'm a very big believer in preventative care. People often look for people, you know, we come to resources and we look for things when we're in deep pain and I'm like, bruh, can you just replenish and restore yourself when you're already at a stable point?
[00:47:36] Can you give yourself the tools? For whatever you may need in the journey ahead before you actually get in to the sticky, icky. So if you know that having some type of like baby is in, whatever your future desire. Take the class so that you can be equipped and have some information and awareness.
[00:47:58] And then for folks who are somewhere in the middle of their journey. I would say trust yourself. Listen to your body. I think that this course and anything that touches on fertility can bring up a lot because you're dipping into pain points that your body is doing a little dance around.
[00:48:19] Maybe you didn't know that it was gonna peekaboo. Really, really listen to yourself. And also the invitation to remember that you deserve a soft landing space to process and unpack. And this is a soft landing space. This is not a hard space, this is not a should, et cetera, et cetera, you must. So if your body feels ready for the softness of being able to receive that care.
[00:48:51] Which you have a right to, which you deserve, which ironically enough can feel so overwhelming the first time we have access to it, because that's not the common standard. Right, let yourself receive it and let yourself enjoy that.
[00:49:04] Josie: Wow. That's so, yeah. Great advice. Thank you.
[00:49:08] So I ask all of my guests who come on the podcast, as you all may or may not know, in Chinese medicine, our fertility is referred to as our essence.
[00:49:18] So the more we're able to get in touch with who we really are or our essence the more access we have to our fertile potential and creative power. Do either of you have any personal practices or rituals in place that allow you to, to connect with your essence or what I call your whole self?
[00:49:34] Jovan: I definitely have a variety of rituals and practices. I think for me, like cause I love that idea of the essence. And as you know, somebody who works on the auric and the etheric levels as an energy practitioner, it's so like, resonant for me. But I think one of the biggest practices, and it's one of the simplest practices.
[00:49:59] Is being able to come back to ourselves like energetically, mentally, physically, and actually, being able to just tap into ourselves, to tap into our body and to actually connect ourselves to the earth. And to also connect ourselves to Spirit, or to the universe. And so for me, you know, having that connection that's like at our root and also having that connection that's at our crown is something that is just so grounding.
[00:50:30] And it's just a really beautiful reminder to come back to self and to come back to that interconnectedness, to the Earth as well as to the universe, and to Spirit. The other part of my practices is like I am a sex doula. So of course, pleasure practice is so important.
[00:50:52] Wherever it feels safe for you to cultivate a practice with yourself that is about receiving pleasure, around giving yourself pleasure, receiving pleasure in ways that feel affirming for yourself, for your identity, for your fertility, for your gender, you know, whatever those different things are coming up for you.
[00:51:16] Connecting into your own personal pleasure practice is, it's just so amazing to be able to like give yourself like that joy and that pleasure without worrying about what anyone else is doing or what else is happening in the world because so much is happening. But being able to tap into that for yourself I think is just so important and I think it's so important for your fertility journey.
[00:51:41] Josie: Mm-hmm. Totally, love that.
[00:51:43] Meenadchi: I will be honest. The first thing that came to mind was my love for Doritos. I was like, Doritos.
[00:51:52] Josie: I love it.
[00:51:54] Meenadchi: Oh my God. I think the idea that anything like, we don't have to be so serious with it. You know? I mean, this is totally serious shit. But also, yeah, we don't have to be so serious with it.
[00:52:05] Do the things that build your life. Love your life. Enjoy your life. So definitely me and my Doritos, laughter, dance. My tarot cards are a big, big, you know, shout out to Jana Lynne Umipig for the Kapwa Tarot cause that has been such a gift to my world.
[00:52:26] And then I also have a teacher who I call my magic teacher so shout out to Zhaleh and to my magic partner Buddy, where there's just like a particular process that I have been given, received of like how to set a sacred container energetically, and then can then enter the container. You know, you clear the space, invite in energies, et cetera. And then that can be a place to ask questions and to receive answers.
[00:52:55] And I think that is a place that I have learned to go often when I feel like I can't find myself. Or I can't track my intuition, what is it telling me to say? Where should I go next? That there. It's a literal physical space, even though it may not be physical in like the earth realm way or something like that. But there is a place that I can go to ask questions and to re-meet me.
[00:53:21] Josie: Wow, I love that. What amazing answers from both of you. And I'm also thinking what my playful essence nourishment would be, and I'm thinking gummy bears.
[00:53:36] Meenadchi: The Bachelorette. Oh, no. I know the answer.
[00:53:43] Josie: That too, that too. So where can folks find you both support y'all and sign up for all your offerings?
[00:53:54] Jovan: So this is Jovan and folks can actually find me at my website, sagescircle.com. And that's S A G E S C I R C L E.com. And you can also just find me on Instagram. It's my full name, Jovan Sage. Nice.
[00:54:14] Meenadchi: And I'll also co-sign being on Jovan's newsletter and following around.
[00:54:18] There's some sweet treats and goodies waiting for you there. And this is obviously Meenadchi and my website is my name, www.meenadchi.com. You can find out both about the DNVC offerings as well as family constellation work. And then my Instagram is @with.meenadchi.
[00:54:39] Josie: Perfect. And I'll include all of that in the show notes so it's easy for y'all to access.
[00:54:44] You two, thank you so much for coming on today. I just enjoy you both immensely. You both have such incredible insight and joy and energy, and I just could spend all day with both of you here. So thank you so much.
[00:55:02] Meenadchi: Yes. It has been really nice spending time here and you know, one more plug that I will give for Fertile. It's really nice building community with people. It's nice, like, you know what I mean? Like you and me, Josie, we've known each other for a minute because we went through king's class together and that's where our journey began. And then it's was nice to, you know, meet Jovan there and then we've, so it's nice to just continue building in different ways with each other.
[00:55:26] Jovan: Thanks for gathering all of us. Thanks for holding this very, what I feel is very sacred space. It's been really beautiful and again, I'm gonna bring this up very nourishing, like all of it. So thank you.
[00:55:41] Josie: Yay. Aw, thank you so much.
[00:55:45] Y'all, I'm so excited to let you know Fertile registration is open. Fertile is a queer, trans, and non-binary centered five week online program for folks with wombs to reclaim power over their fertility journey and conceive using my Whole Self Fertility Method. Healthcare practitioners and community workers, you are welcome to join us and become certified in the Whole Self Fertility Method.
[00:56:11] Head over to intersectionalfertility.com/fertile to check out all the program details and register now. Sliding Scale is available for all, and scholarships are available for Black, Indigenous, and People of the Global Majority. Join us, it's gonna be so much fun. I'll see you there.
[00:56:31] Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz. If you like the show and want to hear more, tap subscribe on your favorite podcast and please leave us a review. It really truly helps.
[00:56:57] The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and produced by Rozarie Productions with original music by Jen Korte.
All content offered through The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is created for informational purposes only, it is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.