Episode 23 - Jozelle Wong Yu: Receiving and Being Received

Meet Josie’s new assistant and pleasure alchemist Jozelle Wong Yu (they/she). Listeners get a peek behind the curtain as the two become further acquainted and discuss fertility, pleasure, the creative process, and the ways how we receive each other hold it all.

[ID: A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 23: Jozelle Wong Yu @pleasure.alchemy and Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier @intersectionalfertility.]

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.

[00:00:00] Josie: I'm Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our whole selves.

[00:00:25] Jozelle, welcome to the podcast. 

[00:00:28] Jozelle: Oh my gosh. We're here. We're here. Thank you so much for having me. 

[00:00:34] Josie: Oh, I'm so excited to introduce you to our listeners. So Jozelle is my new assistant and they, they will be an integral part of Intersectional Fertility and I'm just so stoked to have them on board. And today we're gonna do sort of a getting to know you episode.

[00:00:58] We're gonna do a little sharing each other's stories and getting to know more about how we both got here and what we're doing. I'm gonna share a story that I haven't shared before on the podcast. And I can't wait to hear more from Jozelle. So Jozelle, will you introduce yourself to our listeners, share with us your pronouns, if you're comfortable where you're located and just kind of what you do.

[00:01:22] Jozelle: Oh my gosh, absolutely. If folks could see, I'm smiling so big right now, and my eyes are sparkling. I'm like wiggling my arms just, there's just a lot of energy here. So I feel really happy about that. But, Yeah, absolutely. My name is Jozelle Wong Yu, I use they/she pronouns and I am a proud queer neurodivergent Filipino Chinese alchemist, located on Tongva Kizh land, also known as San Bernardino, California, and I am Josie's new assistant.

[00:01:55] This is still like, cause I'm so excited for the journey ahead together. And it was literally as of yesterday, so diving right in. I am also a reflective listening coach and pleasure facilitator. And what I do is I facilitate central experiences where queer People of Color can reconnect with our radical honesty and be met with tenderness.

[00:02:18] Josie: Wow. That sounds like where our future needs to go. 

[00:02:24] Jozelle: Thank you. Yeah, it's truly transformative work and I'm excited to step into this role. 

[00:02:30] Josie: Yeah, I love that. Oh, I'm so glad to have you here. This is super exciting for me as well. One of the things I value and love about you already is how willing you are to dive into all this with me.

[00:02:47] Jozelle: Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:50] Josie: I love it. I love it. Okay. So will you I know a little bit about what reflective listening is through Meenadchi, which is how you and I met Meenadchi was our last guest on the podcast in this previous episode, and I would love to know more about what reflective listening is and what led you to it.

[00:03:13] Jozelle: Yeah, it's just hitting me right now that Meenadchi was just on the very last episode, and here we are right now. Like what is time? You know? So I definitely wanna say And shout out to my teachers. My work as a reflective listening coach is totally inspired by my teachers and loved ones, Aya Cassy and Meenadchi. And sometimes it just brings tears to my eyes to think about universe connecting us in this lifetime and, and here we are. 

[00:03:42] And it's, as a little side note, it's kind of funny to me. Aya teaches nonviolent communication and Meenadchi teaches decolonizing nonviolent communication, which is great. Those things can totally coexist. 

[00:03:55] Josie: Yes. I love that. 

[00:03:58] Jozelle: Yeah. And reflective listening to me is, is really an intention to listen with our whole body. Letting go of agendas and in essence, offering an environment for others to share and see their truth.

[00:04:16] Josie: Mm, wow. Mm-hmm. So something I notice when I talk with Meenadchi is they give me options of how I want to be listened to. Is this something that you do? I feel like I love it because it's something I learned from them where it's like, I'll say something and then they'll say, Okay, would you like me to reflect that back to you?

[00:04:41] Would you like some feedback? Or there was one other one. I actually wrote it down. . I'll have to find my notes cuz I thought it was so cool. Do you do anything like that or what's your style of reflective listening? 

[00:04:56] Jozelle: Oh my gosh, a hundred percent. Smiling ear to ear. Shout out to Meenadchi's six week or however long that they're having it right now. But the Reflective Listening series, I took that and that was so amazing. And also shout out again to Aya for teaching me how to listen. But yeah, for me, I think reflective listening involves first orienting myself to receive whatever it is another wants to share with me. With tenderness and warmth.

[00:05:28] And then from there, as you were mentioning, Josie, I can offer suggestions for how the other would like to be received further. So, yeah. For example, if you and I were engaging in a reflective listening session and you know, you're telling me about something you're processing at the end of your share, I would ask you what is truly a transformative question.

[00:05:47] What would you like to hear? You know, a lot of times like we're. I've been in situations where I'm pouring my heart out and an immediate response I've historically received is advice or interrogative questions, which is okay in certain contexts if I want that.

[00:06:05] And I noticed about myself and a lot of others is just being able to have that choice of what we're wanting to receive afterwards, so I might also offer suggestions. Like Meenadchi would you like a reflection, which to me is an embodied paraphrase of what I heard you say. Would you like an empathy guest, which is a guess of what I think you're feeling and needing and what you just described to me.

[00:06:31] Or would you just like to be held in warm silence and be witnessed, which is also, you know, can be really healing too. 

[00:06:40] Josie: Wow. I love that an empathy guess. That's such a great term. I love that, yeah. After hanging out with Meenadchi more and more over the past year, over a year now I've noticed that something my partner and I do now is ask for what kind of response we want before we tell each other the thing.

[00:07:05] Like, you know, we'll say like, I actually. Or one of us will say something and then the other one, the other one will say, Do you want suggestions on how to try to fix this? Or do you want to just vent? 

[00:07:18] Jozelle: I love that. I love that because I think it also helps us as sharers to connect with what we're needing in that moment. Like, Oh wow, that question that you're asking me, what would I like to hear? Do you want some suggestions I can get in tune with? I think I'm really just needing to be heard, and for me in this moment, it looks like warm silence or for me in this moment it is a reflection. It is that embodied paraphrase. 

[00:07:48] Josie: Yeah, totally. Yeah. It does help as the sharer, because I feel like it allows you to be more vulnerable because you're not kind of protecting yourself in anticipation of getting the wrong response. 

[00:08:03] Jozelle: I love that. Just being able to dive deeper. And I also think that as a listener, It helps me to orient my mind and my internal environment when I hear, Oh, okay, Josie, you're wanting maybe a reflection after this, or silence. Like, I know how to come to you and care for you. Right. So, It's really beautiful work. 

[00:08:27] Josie: Ugh. I love it. So with your reflective listening practice, would you work with people to learn how to do this reflective listening? Is that kind of the idea? 

[00:08:39] Jozelle: Absolutely. Yes. 

[00:08:40] Josie: Ok, cool. 

[00:08:41] Jozelle: Coaching in this regard and also offering community spaces. Or we can practice together. 

[00:08:48] Josie: Awesome. Okay. Well as soon as those are developed, we will share all the details with our audience and I cannot wait for them. They're gonna be awesome. So will you also share with us the second thing that you do, which is pleasure facilitating ? 

[00:09:08] Jozelle: Yeah. Well, okay. So the title came to me from My Ancestors, which I love. So thank you to my ancestors. Pleasure facilitation is a newer offering to me. And I also wanna say it's also totally inspired by Adrienne Maree Brown's work and her book Pleasure Activism. So this work is still, it does feel too tender to talk about publicly in this moment. I do hope to talk about it with you soon and publicly soon.

[00:09:39] The intention is to, help us reconnect to what makes us feel good. Sensually, sexually. And to have spaces where we can do this deep, liberating work in community. So when those details and offerings are out, I will definitely let you know. 

[00:09:55] Josie: Yay. I can't wait. And I feel like that topic is so important in the fertility journey as well.

[00:10:04] Jozelle: Absolutely. Well, I think that might be a great segue into asking some questions about you. How do you feel? 

[00:10:13] Josie: Sure. Yeah. Go for it. 

[00:10:16] Jozelle: Okay. So in getting to know you, I know that you talk a lot about how aligning with the essence of who you are gives you more access to your fertile potential and creative power. First of all, wow. 

[00:10:35] Wow. Can you expand on that? And give an example of what that looks like. 

[00:10:40] Josie: Yeah. So this is the story I wanted to tell, which is it actually was this realization I had when I was studying, I was studying Chinese medicine from a teacher of mine, her name's Randy Lewis. And she was talking about some of these ancient Chinese medicine texts that are thousands of years old.

[00:11:00] And one of the things she was talking about was that The kidney essence, which is what we think of as our fertility in Chinese medicine actually translates directly to our essence, right? Like our essence of who we are. And so actually becoming more in touch with who we are really gives us more access to our fertility. 

[00:11:23] And it doesn't even have to be fertility in the classic sense, but fertility in terms of our ability to create anything, you know, our ability to just have that creative power more accessible to us, you know? 

[00:11:39] So anyway, when I learned about this and was like having these major full body goosebumps learning about this concept, I was in a cis het relationship with my two kids, married and I had come out sort of, not sort of, I had come out in college. I was with a woman, but after that college experience, I went back to dating cis men and just kind of got down that cis het road for quite a while, you know, couple decades.

[00:12:09] And so this was, this queerness in me was really something that I felt hesitant to explore for a long time or to explore more. And so along the same time that this was happening, when I was studying with Randy Lewis, I was having all these symptoms. I was having like heart palpitations, anxiety, and insomnia and all these, what we call in Chinese medicine like heat and the heart symptoms.

[00:12:39] So like, so like my heart was on fire is how it felt. I literally felt like that in my chest. I felt like it was always just on fire and I couldn't sleep. I was up all night all the time. I used to refer to this as my werewolf phase. Where I felt like I was becoming a werewolf. I felt like I was growing fur and like claws were coming outta my hands.

[00:13:05] I felt so powerful but also like kind of virile, that word. And like what is happening, like this new side of me was like waking up and it was my queerness, you know, where I was like, I have this like full body animalistic desire, you know, to be in a queer relationship, a queer companionship, a queer sexual relationship, all of it.

[00:13:29] And so it was like really intense. I have these small kids and everything. And so I was like, Okay, what do I do? And so it was just like the beginning of, what I realized on this journey or what sort of started to happen was, The anecdote in Chinese medicine to that heart fire is cooling kidney energy.

[00:13:52] So kidneys are associated with water in Chinese medicine. So it's like that you, you literally need like more water to put the fire out. And so this is a pattern that happens a lot is, you know, folks will get that heat in the heart. And then what we do is try to nourish the kidneys so we can cool off that heat. 

[00:14:14] And so I was like, I realized, I think this was more of a retrospective looking back on what happened. Seeing like, oh, the more I became open to exploring my queerness, and the more I aligned more with that, the more I was accessing that kidney energy. Because I was becoming more of who I am.

[00:14:35] I was becoming more of my essence, you know? That kidney essence. Yeah. And so, you know, as I was coming out, you know, for the second time and taking these steps to leave my marriage and pursue this queerness, and all of it. My symptoms did go away. I was able to sleep again. I was able to, you know, my anxiety calmed down.

[00:14:58] My heart palpitations went away. And I did even notice an increased fertility, like in the classic sense, like I noticed like I had more copious amounts of cervical fluid and that kind of thing. It was like, My fertility was really rearing up again, which was like so wild because I was done having kids.

[00:15:18] I didn't want to have kids anymore. But I did have more things to birth, you know, creatively. One of the things like being this podcast and being, you know, my online program that I launched last year called Fertile. You know, and all these major visions and projects that I've had in the works for so long.

[00:15:36] So yeah. So that's like how that, so that's an exam that's like I know, right? Like what a wild story.

[00:15:46] Jozelle: Well, I'm also getting to know you Josie. So it's like, here we are just right in and I'm trying to like, contain the excited energy of just like, just getting to know you. Which is a beautiful experience for me.

[00:16:05] Can I reflect like the essence of what I'm getting so far from your story? 

[00:16:09] Josie: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:16:11] Jozelle: So what I'm tracking is that you were feeling like a lot of heat in your heart and that was associated with like insomnia and did you also say depression?

[00:16:23] Josie: No. Anxiety, which Yeah, anxiety. And there was definitely some depression in there too. And a lot of times they're linked. Yeah. 

[00:16:30] Jozelle: Okay. Yeah. So associated with these symptoms. And then you were learning that cooling kidney energy can help with that. So I, my background, I don't really know anything about fertility. I am someone who is not really thinking about having kids. So this is just a very juicy conversation for me and I appreciate that.

[00:16:53] I'm really curious about that connection, cuz to me it seems like there's just so many different levels of connections, like spiritually, energetically, physically. A lot of different things. How is this landing so far? Is this making sense? 

[00:17:09] Josie: Totally. Yeah. I mean, it felt like, Yeah, exactly. Because through one lens it was like sort of an intellectual interpreting of what was going on. Where it's like, Oh, well my heart heat is acting up and I'm having these symptoms, and I need to like, cool them off, and all that, And then through another lens it's like, I am looking my queerness in the eye right now and like squaring that with my life and what that means.

[00:17:36] And so that was like a major emotional undertaking, you know? And then spiritually too, it was like, why am I here? You know, what's my, what's my purpose? What's my you know, reason for being here on the planet? What's my contribution? So yeah, it was all of it for sure. 

[00:17:58] Jozelle: And was this around like 2016, 2017?

[00:18:04] Josie: Yep. Yep. Totally. Yeah. 

[00:18:08] Jozelle: Would you be be willing to talk about. It's just the creative process from there. You know, like I heard you talk about wanting to create this podcast, and Fertile. 

[00:18:19] Josie: Would love to hear more about that. Yeah. So, yeah, so after that happened, you know, I came out fully and I left my marriage and found this incredible partnership with my current partner, whose name is Melissa.

[00:18:33] She's been at, on the podcast a couple times. 

[00:18:35] Jozelle: I've just listened to one of the episodes. 

[00:18:38] Josie: Yes. Yeah. She's the best. So yeah, and I've been a fertility acupuncturist for many, many years, for since 2008, about 13 years now. So after I came out, it was like, it just turned my whole world upside down in many ways.

[00:18:53] But one of the ways was like, shifting my focus to serve for, to wanting to serve queer, trans and non-binary folks with wombs who are trying to conceive. So I just, you know, that was my main My main goal and my main shift that happened after that process. So that's been my goal ever since is to, you know, really focus on serving that community that I'm also a part of, you know?

[00:19:20] So it's been like a also selfishly like wanting to create my own community as well, you know, and to really deepen those roots. And to really uplift and support and just bring that focus of fertility back to the queer trans BIPOC community. Yeah, that's been my goal. 

[00:19:43] Jozelle: Oh my gosh. Hmm, I'm reminded of this sentiment of, creating what we wish to see. And so just hearing you just follow your path and trading the community that you wish to be, that you are part of or like, supporting that just feels so special to me. And I'm wondering, there's so many different ways that I'm wanting to take this, and I'm curious what's life for you to speak about now? 

[00:20:17] Josie: Hmm. Yeah, I think that I just, I feel like this has been such an incredible journey for me that I, that I don't see ever ending. I feel like this is just the beginning in a lot of ways. And as I started to go down this path, I really noticed that it's, there's such a need for it.

[00:20:39] You know, there's, there's really very little support out there for folks who are queer or trans or non-binary who are trying to conceive nearly everything is geared towards not only cis het women, but cis het white women you know, that's most of the representation. It's most of the languaging.

[00:21:01] It's frustrating, you know, so. Yeah, that's what's coming up for me is just, is feeling like it really stoked some passion and almost anger in me when I started, researching this and kind of shifting my focus, it was like, why hasn't anyone else done this yet?

[00:21:21] Jozelle: Can we talk about anger being a transformative or like being an energy that mobilizes I'm, I'm curious how you have yeah, worked with your anger to support your creative process. 

[00:21:33] Josie: That is such a good question. Yeah. , I feel like probably that's been one of my dominant emotions throughout this process. You know, since 2016, 2017 has been anger and that has been what's fueled so much of what I've done over the past several years. Yeah, it's like, it's almost like once you Learn one thing that you were lied to about, then it like sort of opens up, 10 more things, and you're like, Oh my gosh, all of this was a lie.

[00:22:04] You know? That's how it felt to me, yeah. So, yeah. And I, I mean, and actually that's, that, is that that heart fire energy? It can be, is that, you know, it's like, it's, well, it's associated with joy in Chinese medicine, but can also be like that fierceness, you know, that that fire, that fierceness can come with it too. And I do feel like that where I'm just like, Okay. This needs to change. 

[00:22:36] Jozelle: That's really inspiring for me to hear because right now in my journey, anger is coming up a lot and I'm wanting to use it or work with it in a way that serves life. Yeah. And just hearing you talk about how you have worked with anger and building Intersectional Fertility.

[00:22:58] Cause I'm totally resonating with you in like, Wow, I've been had, you know, like in, in like, being lied to in all these different ways and it's still, you know, unfolding. It will continue to. And anger is definitely something that comes up and What I don't wanna do is turn it internally.

[00:23:16] Which is like, I'm like well practiced in that. So what does it look like to work with it in a healthy way. And you're saying that that's the, it's associated with heat in the heart? Or cooling kidney energy? 

[00:23:28] Josie: Yeah, it can be, that's, it's, well, like traditionally, anger is associated with the liver in Chinese medicine, but I have found, That sometimes that en that fire energy in the heart can also be associated with a different, almost a different flavor of anger where it's more like, I think, mixed with passion.

[00:23:49] You know? And I do feel like fire has that transformative quality. Like fire can really you know, I think of like the Phoenix rising from the ashes, or I think of like a crucible, situation. Like I always think of that time in my life was a crucible where it just, it burned everything down, including myself, and then I came out of it on the other side.

[00:24:12] So I feel like, that fire energy has that, it's like anger mixed with passion, mixed with transformation, I think. So then I developed this fertility method called the Whole Self Fertility Method that literally brings into balance every element according to Chinese medicine. Which aligns with different organ systems in the body.

[00:24:37] So for example, in Western medicine, you know, fertility is really seen as a more compartmentalized process where it's like fertility really only has to do with like the egg, you know, eggs and the uterus and it's just like very kind of a narrow vision of what, what affects someone's fertility. 

[00:24:58] Whereas in the Whole Self Fertility Method, we look at your digestion, and not only the digestion, but like, digestion aligns with the earth element. So we talk about the emotional aspects of that, and then also the physical aspects of that, and then how that contributes to holding a pregnancy.

[00:25:18] You know, so we go through each element. So it's like calling into the literal whole self of someone and how it affects their fertility. So it's a lot more all encompassing then just, eat these foods and then you'll be more fertile.

[00:25:42] Jozelle: Absolutely. What's coming to mind right now is the fact that gardening is happening right outside my window and I'll a little insecure about that. So I'm gonna take it to the kitchen and cross my fingers. So hearing about the different elements like water, earth, as part of the Whole Self Fertility Method, does that require a belief?

[00:26:14] Okay, So, okay. What's coming to mind is ayurveda and doshas and being made of all these different elements, which can be quite a stretch for some folks. And for me, it brings up like curiosity. I am a believer that we are in nature, like in human form, and so it's just kind of like, wow, wow, wow.

[00:26:36] For me to hear you talk about all the elements as part of the method that you've developed, and how it also relates. Queerness. 

[00:26:44] Josie: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It is a really different way of thinking. And what I find interesting about it is that it is so similar to other ancient medicines. So like, Ancient Chinese medicine has a lot similarities to ayurvedic medicine, you know, so, and other ancient medicines are, there's a lot of through lines, through different cultures that existed.

[00:27:09] And unfortunately, you know, some cultures are more, we're more preserved. Than others based on, you know, different takeovers, you know, different colonial takeovers. So for whatever reason, like, you know, the ones that we have the most access to the longest ago are, you know, one of them is Chinese medicine.

[00:27:30] But I do feel like, I feel like there for at least certain folks that that ancient medicines resonate and on some level, because they're sort of part of all of our lineage, all of our lineages, you know, at some point. So I feel like there is sort of a innate understanding of like, yeah, of course we're, we're all. We all contain all of the elements.

[00:27:56] You know, whatever the elements are, depending on what, on which medicine we're talking about, you know, which from which culture. But yeah, and for some folks it's a leap, you know, And especially those who are more indoctrinated, I think in colonial thinking and also in western medicine world, in those terms.

[00:28:14] So, Yeah, I think, you know, it's, it's definitely not for everyone , but I do find that yes. And there's like a complimentary vibe. I think between bringing your whole self to the table and queerness. I do think that there's, you know, that makes a lot of sense to me. 

[00:28:35] And, with the folks I've worked with and the feedback I've gotten like that, that seems to really be helpful for folks to be able to bring their whole self, to the fertility journey and not just like, Oh, I'm just gonna, you know, show up in this way only, only this part of me because I don't wanna be discriminated against or harmed or, you know talked down to or disrespected or whatever. 

[00:29:01] Jozelle: Hearing you say that really makes it clear to me that being able to show up as our whole self, like really does affect fertility and authenticity. . It's just, it's a lot. I think that what you're doing is revolutionary and is so needed. And this is just day two together. Is that what's happening?

[00:29:32] Josie: I know. I know. It's so awesome.

[00:29:39] Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your whole self fertility method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz. If you like the show and wanna hear more, tap subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and please leave us a review. It really truly helps. 

[00:30:05] The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and produced by For the Love Media with Original Music by Jen Korte.

All content offered through The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is created for informational purposes only, it is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.