Episode 21 - Jennifer Molina: Writing through Our Queerness

Josie brings back the first guest episode of the podcast - a thoughtful and deep conversation with writer and full-spectrum birthworker Jennifer Molina (she/her). They talk about how writing helps us navigate our queerness and the responsibility of being seen through writing, especially as queer people of color. Come for the generous conversation, stay for the bonus poetry reading and liberatory writing prompts.

[ID: A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 21: Jennifer Molina @jemofadoula | @unitedinbirth and Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier @intersectionalfertility.]

Episode transcript

Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.

[00:00:00] Josie: I'm Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our whole selves.

[00:00:23] I'm extremely honored and excited to bring back this interview that was the very first interview of the Intersectional Fertility podcast. And that is, if you don't count the interview with my fiancee. This was my first guest and I'm so excited for you to hear this one if you haven't heard it yet.

[00:00:44] From Jennifer Molina and she really trusted me and was so brave and came onto this podcast and did it so graciously and wonderfully, and I just adore this conversation that we had. And she just is a gifted writer and birth worker. One of, as you'll hear towards the end of this conversation, she suggested to me that I incorporate some creative writing into my fertility offerings, which I ended up doing.

[00:01:14] So folks who just went through Fertile with me in the fall were able to participate in some journal writing prompts at the end of each module, and those were largely inspired by Jen. So Jen, if you're listening, thank you so much for that. So everyone else, if you haven't heard this one yet, and even if you have, you're going to just love it as I did, I hope, and enjoy.

[00:01:45] Today I'm talking with Jennifer Molina, a queer, full-spectrum birth worker from New York City. As a middle child, she often felt forgotten or misunderstood by her family. Writing became a way for her to feel heard and process hard emotions. It is a practice that has gotten her through tough times and learned to be resilient in a place that is not always safe for queer brown people.

[00:02:09] Jennifer believes everyone has a story to tell and spreads the gospel of poetry and journaling as radical self-care. Writing and storytelling are her resistance. She is also the founder of United in Birth, a birth worker collective that centers trans, queer and non-binary BIPOC folks. When she's not writing or doula-ing, you can find her cuddling with her two cats, Brooklyn and Pablo, and loving on her partner, Goose. 

[00:02:47] So welcome, Jen. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. Please share with us your pronouns and where you're located in the world.

[00:03:00] Jennifer: Yeah, thanks for having me. My pronouns are she/her and I am in New York City.

[00:03:03] Josie: Awesome. So I want to ask you about your background and experience in writing and birth work, and if there's any connection or intertwining between the two or what those experiences are for you.

[00:03:23] Jennifer: I am a full spectrum breath worker, so I support people through abortion, loss, fertility, as well as birth and postpartum. 

[00:03:32] The way that writing ties into my birth work is I feel like it's been more of a tool like for myself as a way to just like be comfortable with myself and also like grow my confidence in terms of starting a business and finding people to work with and troubleshooting ideas for what I want to do with clients and things like that.

[00:04:03] I'm still trying to figure a way to bring that into the work that I do with clients and maybe it would just be like journal prompts or something like that. But writing for me has always been like a way to just help me understand the world around me and also to help me get things out.

[00:04:30] Because like, yeah, growing up, like I never felt like I could talk to anybody. And so my journal was like my only source of comfort and the only place where I would actually share what it is that I really needed to share.

[00:04:51] Josie: Totally. I can relate to that. I was an only, well, I still am, an only child. My journal was like my other, you know, my confidant.

[00:05:01] Jennifer: Yeah. I'm not an only child, I have two sisters. But yeah, we just weren't close growing up. It was also like, you know, your parents have a lot of shit going on. I was the middle child, you know, the stereotype of like they forget about you. So it was just like what I would do.

[00:05:25] Josie: Totally. So in Chinese medicine, you know, most of my focus is on fertility and I am always on the lookout for ways to guide people to be able to access their fertility in deeper and stronger ways. And another word for fertility in Chinese medicine is our essence, it's our kidney essence. 

[00:05:47] So it really literally translates to more of like who we are, the essence of who we are, our authentic selves. And so I feel like writing is such a great tool for accessing that which in turn can really help someone access more of their creative power which can translate into fertility. So I would love if there is one, or is there a story of how writing came into your life?

[00:06:11] Do you remember kind of the first journal entry or the first time it felt like, you know, that you were really seeing yourself reflected on the page and feeling connected to that true self?

[00:06:23] Jennifer: It started sometime in fifth grade, but for some reason, that's like the year that sensed out in my mind. I think I always had diaries with the locks on it and stuff that I would write in very occasionally, or actually, maybe it was seventh grade.

[00:06:44] It was right around the time when my parents separated. So yeah. So when my parents were getting divorced and things like that, I think that's really when I started writing more. And that's just kind of like how it's been for me. I find that when I'm working through something that's when I tend to write more. 

[00:07:06] And as for when I saw my authentic self, like on the page, I think that that was, I would say like a few years ago, once I figured out that I was queer. Cause I remember writing about it and just having all these feelings about it.

[00:07:31] And then I was like, oh shit, am I queer, like what's going on? And not always knowing what I was feeling and things, but like trying to figure it out.

[00:07:44] Josie: Totally. Oh my gosh. I had such a similar experience. I was going to ask if there were one to two particular moments or phases where writing helped you connect with that essence of who you are.

[00:07:55] And I was going to say as an example, on my end, it helped me so much when I was coming out for the second time. I came out more than once, but I mean, you know, we're continuously coming out, but it also helped me. It's interesting that you mentioned your parents' divorce. 

[00:08:10]It helped me when I was navigating my own divorce. So I would say those are the two main times where writing really saved my life in many ways. Like you said, helped me connect the dots.

[00:08:32] I think it's helpful to sometimes, when you're, especially journaling, like when you can see a theme or a pattern that keeps coming up and you're like, you don't necessarily notice it if it's just in your thoughts. Cause you don't notice how often certain things come up, but if it's in writing, you can't ignore it as well.

[00:08:45] Jennifer: When I was in my last relationship, that was like the most that I've ever journaled because it was just like, I had all these feelings about it and I was unhappy in the relationship and not really understanding why. 

[00:08:59] And after three years of writing the same over and over again, I was like, okay, obviously this is not going to change. I have to take myself out of this situation. But it's also helped me identify thought patterns and things like that. I noticed now that I'm able to, like, if I see that I might say something bad or you know, that negative self-talk where you're just like, oh, I can't do this. Or like, this is too hard.

[00:09:32] Or like, oh, this isn't for me or whatever. I'm able to turn that around now and I'm like oh, wait a second. Like, no, I shouldn't talk about myself that way. Like, I can do it. And so getting into birth work, like that was a huge thing because the biggest thing that I was intimidated by was starting my own business.

[00:09:54]  I was like, who am I to start my own business and to try to branch out and be an entrepreneur, like, what the fuck is that? Like, who am I, who do I think I am? So through that process of like journaling or even like becoming a birth worker, like even going to the training, like, you don't realize how many things you've been stopping yourself from doing or like, even just like exploring, just because you're scared, you know. 

[00:10:25] So then I went to my first training and I was like, and I went into it and I was like, you know what? I don't even know if this is what I want to do. I just immediately went to, if I go down this path, I'm going to have to start my own business. So let me just like, even go to the training, see how I feel, and then go from there.

[00:10:47] Josie: Totally. I love that. I feel like I've been able to do that more as well. Like when I find myself really beating myself up in my writing, it just feels more violent to me because I see it in writing. So then I have to really stop myself and almost try to channel like a kinder version of myself to turn that ship around.

[00:11:13] Jennifer: And I just got goosebumps cause that's the  word, violent. It's like when you see it written down like it just feels harsher. Especially like, there have been times in my life where I've struggled with body image and things like that. And especially now, like through the pandemic, I've seen this shift in my body, and when I journal and I'm like, oh, like I feel so ugly. 

[00:11:43] Or like, I'm mad cause like none of my clothes fit, it just forces you to be like, oh, wait a second. I'm sorry. Like, it's a pandemic, it's okay. You know your body is wonderful. It helps you do all the things.

[00:12:08] Cause it's almost like you're talking to somebody else while you're talking to you. So it's like if someone else were saying that to you and you're like, wait a second. If someone else said that to me, I wouldn't let them say that.

[00:12:22] Josie: I love that the journaling sort of makes it two people, it almost separates yourself into another person. Yeah. That's interesting. But I feel very similarly about body image stuff coming up during the pandemic. And I have noticed it in my writing and in my journaling and where I start to be unkind to myself. And it gets tied up with gender, kind of how I feel about my gender and all of it, it all comes out in my writing.

[00:12:53] Jennifer: Did you come out again recently?

[00:12:57] Josie: Yeah, I came out in, it was 2016, 2017. And that's when I left my 10-year relationship at that point with the father of my kids. And I came out in college almost 20 years ago now as well. But it was different back then. 

[00:13:19] I don't even remember necessarily coming out, but I had a lot of, you know, my queerness was very obvious to me and the people around me when I was in college. And boy, the writing that I did from that, holy smokes. I actually wrote my, I was a creative writing major in my undergrad. And so I had to write a novella, I was in the fiction track, not the poetry track and my fiction novella was a queer love story.

[00:13:42] I know. And I was like, I don't know why, but I feel really drawn to write this like queer love story. And it was like my heart and soul poured into that novella. And years later, I'm like, gosh, I mean, I was just so close to my essence of who I was and my true self during that time. 

[00:14:04] And I was so young, I was, 19, 20 around there and I really got close to it. And then I really veered away from it again. But anyways, that novella, I just laugh when I think about it. It was definitely like a roadmap I think, or a premonition, for what was coming for sure.

[00:14:32] Jennifer: That's how it happens. Because I remember like when I first came out, I just thought about it in the context of women. And now I know that my sexuality expands beyond that. But I remember writing things like, oh, I think I would have sex with a woman, but I don't know if I would date them and things. 

[00:14:54] And that was the beginning of me playing with that. Or even just, I remember when I was a kid, I used to play dolls with my cousin and I would make like the two Barbies be together. And it's just little things like that, that looking back on it now, when I write about it and things like that, I'm like, oh yeah, I've always felt this way.

[00:15:22] I've always been queer, I've always lived in this kind of, you know, whatever, in-between space, you know? And for one reason or the other, I felt like I had to choose.

[00:15:44] Josie: Yeah. And you wouldn't see that if it weren't for that documentation of it. 

[00:15:49] I found myself using the same words to describe how I felt about this one woman. And I would write about it, I mean, over a span of years really. And it would come back and it would come back and I would write about these feelings. And later I started describing my queerness using those same words. And I was like, oh, it was this.

[00:16:11] I would describe it as this special place inside of me. And I was like, oh, this was not about her necessarily, it was about my queerness that I was connecting to. And it was so clear because I kept seeing it come up in my writing.

[00:16:26] Jennifer: I've been thinking a lot more about my gender identity recently and just questioning it, I guess would be the word. But I have felt this resistance to write about it. Cause it feels like I can't go there, you know, kind of, it makes me very uncomfortable, you know?

[00:17:01] Josie: Cause then you can't, take it back if it's on paper.

[00:17:05] Jennifer:Yeah. So it serves that purpose too, you know I'm able to see what things make me uncomfortable and why.

[00:17:18] Josie: Totally. I have also have been questioning my gender a lot in the past year or so. 

[00:17:26] And yeah, the writing, I did resist writing about it as well, and I'm not sure why, it felt similar to how I started writing about my queerness, where I was like, I don't even know where to start or I remember, I think writing at one point, I don't even know how to have sex with a woman.

[00:17:45] Or the logistics of it. I didn't know the details and the words were not available to me, the vocabulary, I didn't have the right vocabulary to write about stuff. And I just felt like such a newbie at writing about whatever I was feeling that it just, yeah. 

[00:18:03] Anyways, there were a lot of barriers there, but what helped me finally was actually a suggestion from my therapist at the time. Well, she's still my therapist. I love her. She told me to get a safe that locks and put your journals in them and then just say whatever, and then you can put them in the safe and lock them up. And I was like, yes, that was helpful.

[00:18:28] Jennifer: I guess the worry isn't so much that someone will read it, but I mean, I guess kind of, it would suck if someone read them. Cause I have said some shit that I know that if someone would read it, they would be like what. Even subconsciously I guess there could always be that little thing there. Now that I'm thinking about it.

[00:18:59] Josie: I'm always like, what if I die in some freak accident and then all my journals are, you know, anyway.

[00:19:05] Jennifer: I guess I would want, I don't know, part of like, why I write though is because even though some of the things that I write aren't always nice or like the easiest things I think to read for my loved ones. 

[00:19:18] I do think it's important to share your stories and to pass that down and I would want my children or my grandchildren to have access to all of my journals and things. Even though I would probably be mortified at some of the stuff that's in there and they probably would be too, but it is like, I think there's a lot of power in someone you care about in that way. And also, them being able to tell those stories and understand your life from your point of view versus there's.

[00:20:13] Josie: Yes. I especially feel that with my kids. I feel like this very intense drive to write a memoir of some sort so that they have my point of view for when they're old enough to understand it. Them reading my journals, I'm like, oh boy, I don't know if I am okay with that.

[00:20:35] Jennifer: I think I would do that after I've passed, I don't want to know that you read it, but if you want, it's in dusty boxes that they find after I've been turned into a tree or whatever.

[00:20:54] Josie: Exactly. I have to be long gone by the time they find those. But yeah, I feel it's so important to share stories, especially as queer folks and especially as people of color, I feel like those are, you know, there's just so many missed underrepresented voices in the world of, I mean, every world, but especially the world of literature and any sort of artistic art form really. So I almost feel like a duty to be seen in that way.

[00:21:27] Jennifer: And it is a duty because just thinking about all the shit we learn in schools, like all the history that's passed down to us and even like the medical information and all that stuff, all of that comes from white institutions, it's featuring whiteness and highlighting whiteness. 

[00:21:55] And our stories have been purposefully left out of the conversation because we weren't seen to matter, we weren't seen to be important and so we're responsible for our own storytelling and we're responsible for making sure that those stories are told and that they're shared.

[00:22:20] And it's also a way for us to preserve our traditions and our culture and our uniqueness. I have been thinking more and more about that recently because my family, they're from the Dominican Republic and they don't really talk about our history at all. And they'll answer my questions when I ask, but it has to be like, after I kind of like dig it out of them and ask very specific questions.

[00:22:59] And a lot of the times I know it's because they think like either I don't care, which to be honest, at one point I didn't because I didn't know any better. Or they just don't think it's important for me to know, you know? And the deeper I get into birth work, the more I find myself wanting to know about my traditions and our healing practices and what all of their births were like, how we were taken care of, you know? 

[00:23:39] And how did people birth, like how did their four ancestors birth, you know, and all these things that aren't just offered.

[00:23:56] Josie: Totally, it seems like birth work is inherently ancestral work because there's just so much that's like the thread that ties us all together is birthing. 

[00:24:08] So it seems so natural that that would bring all that up when you start doing birth work, wanting to know about all that. I feel really similarly about my Mexican heritage. I don't have any contact with my dad who’s where my Mexican heritage comes from. And I did go through a phase when I was a lot younger where I connected with his side of the family and were asking them a bunch of questions.

[00:24:35] They were really, really sweet and really helped me out as much as they could. But there's a lot of that, exactly like ancestral medicine that was definitely not handed down that I don't know anything about, so I'm kind of putting the pieces together now as an adult and trying to learn from other people who knew these ways of healing.

[00:24:54] And I'm taking a course right now through the University of New Mexico which is where I was born. So that feels like a full circle as well. But learning about that, yeah, I'm loving it, it is so cool. Learning about the Mexican folk healing, the art of curanderismo.

[00:25:13] Jennifer: Yeah. I was actually talking to my sister about it the other day because I was thinking about how... I've signed up for so many trainings under the sun and in many ways, my family will be the last people that I go to. They're going to be, for me to learn about my ancestors and our traditions and our culture. 

[00:25:41] Like, I have to ask them, you know. And it's been very difficult because my family, like we've gotten more open over the years, but it's still, like growing up, we did not talk at all. I did not share any personal information with my family.

[00:26:02] It was just like, you just did what you had to do, went to school, went to work, we would kind of stayed out of the way. And that was it. And so like navigating that changing dynamic has been hard and trying to figure out, even like what I want to know and having them tell me honestly. And having them also see our story as important, it's a work in progress.

[00:26:39] Josie: Totally. I can see how that would be a big shift from how things have been done. I also wanted to ask you if there were any... This is kind of a selfish question because I want to know, but do you have any queer people of color authors that have had a big impact on you?

[00:26:58] Jennifer: Adrienne Marie Brown is a big one.

[00:27:00] Josie: For sure.

[00:27:02] Jennifer: Unfortunately, I can think more of authors who are people of color versus who are also queer, like Elizabeth Acevedo has been a huge influence for me, Angie Cruz. Cause they've written books where like... The first book that popped into my head when you asked that question was Dominicana by Angie Cruz. 

[00:27:26] And it's about a Dominican woman who leaves DR to move to Washington Heights with her husband and just her navigating all the difficulties that come with that and the obligations to come to the US and sending money back to the family and just all these things.

[00:27:57] It reminded me so much of like I couldn't read it and not think of my mom. Because there were a lot of similarities of like, just so many similarities. And I also was raised partly in the same neighborhood that they were talking about in the book and things like that.

[00:28:17] And then, in the end, when Angie Cruz is talking about why she wrote the book and stuff, she said that she wrote the book for all the people who have been told that their story doesn't matter and that no one would read about their story. Cause I think she based it on her mom's life.

[00:28:46] Josie: So cool. I'll check that out. That sounds really good. I love, I'm in the middle, I'm almost finished with pleasure activism that was written by Adrienne Marie Brown. So good.

[00:28:59] Jennifer: I've been reading Emergent Strategy, just like everything about it. I'm just like you took all the words that were in my brain and put them into a book somehow.

[00:29:12] Josie: Oh, I know. So good. I love that book too. There was a quote I wrote down from... So for all you who don't know, Jen teaches these amazing poetry workshops. I don't know if that was your first one that you did that I took recently, or if you do them periodically.

[00:29:26] Jennifer: No, that was my first one. But hopefully, they will be regular.

[00:29:33] Josie: It was such a fun experience. And there was one quote and I didn't write down who said it. Was it Octavia Butler that said our ancestors dreamed us up and then bent reality to create us?

[00:29:45] Jennifer: Yeah. It was probably Octavia Butler.

[00:29:50] Josie: I just love that. So beautiful.

[00:29:52] Jennifer: That’s a great quote. 

[00:29:55] Josie: Yeah, it really is. Well, I was wondering if you had any writing that you wanted to share. I'm totally okay if you don't.

[00:30:02] Jennifer: Let's see. The subject of liberation has been at the forefront of my mind these past couple of weeks considering all the murders at the hands of the police. And also how we're expected to just operate as normal, you know because, on top of birth work, I also have a regular job because unfortunately, doula work doesn't pay the bills just yet. 

[00:30:34] So in my nine to five, it's like we're waiting for the verdict about the George Floyd case, but then I'm supposed to sit at the stupid meeting about something not even important. And yeah, there isn't like a lot of consideration in general over how black and brown people have to navigate experiencing racism and loss every day of our lives, you know.

[00:31:09] Absolutely. So, yes. So this is what came out of the thing. And the prompt that came up in the last workshop was using the five senses, describe your liberation.

[00:31:26] Josie: This is my favorite writing prompt that I've learned from you. It is so brilliant. Will you say it again? So people can do it on their own.

[00:31:37] Jennifer: Using your five senses, describe your liberation. 

[00:31:44] My liberation tastes like 

Sweet mangoes 

Plucked fresh from a tree 

It feels like 

My lover's fingertips grazing my back

Our legs intertwined 

Swallowing each others' laughter between kisses 

It sounds like 

Drum beats 

Rhythmic breathing 

Stomping feet

It smells like 

Manzana y canela 

Boiling on a hot stove 

My mami's sazón 

New baby smell 

Sweat 

Fresh cut flowers 

It looks like 

Sunshine after a rainstorm

White, sandy beaches

Tenderness

[00:32:28] Liberation is the ability to be soft 

To not be murdered or hurt for it 

Liberation means not looking over my shoulder 

Liberation is believing the cops will forgive me 

...I mean protect me 

Liberation is forgiveness to myself 

For my wants 

My thoughts 

My shortcomings 

Liberation is… 

Acceptance of my true self.

[00:33:07] Josie: That makes me tear up. That is so beautiful. Thank you. I love that. Thank you for sharing. I was going to share mine, but now I feel like it's not nearly as good.

[00:33:19] Jennifer: No, share it. Even if you don't add it to the recording later. I do want to hear it.

[00:33:25] Josie: Well, I actually started writing from that writing prompt after the poetry workshop, but I haven't finished yet, so I'm not going to share that one, but this is the one I shared in class. So the prompt was what is the monster in your life right now and how will you slay it?  

The monster in my life is other people's judgments of who I am, their judgments about decisions I've made, my integrity and my authenticity, my parenting, my wholeness. Isn't it funny how people can see or experience one tiny part of you and feel like they are the authority of who you are and how you should or shouldn't change and what you should or shouldn't do, act or behave? 

[00:34:10] Why is never changing seen as the gold standard of quote-unquote, knowing yourself, or being in your integrity? Why don't people trust change? Why does it scare people so damn much, make people feel so skeptical? Life is change. There is nothing else. Yet everything we do is trying to stop change at all costs and it's killing us. 

[00:34:35] We have to change to survive. I had to change to survive. To slay my monster I say, I'm still here and I'll never stop changing.

[00:34:48] Jennifer: That was great.

[00:34:52] Josie: Cool. Well let's see if there is anything else I wanted to talk with you about, I'm looking at my notes here. Yeah, I just love your writing prompts. I love your poetry workshop that I did. I hope you do more.

[00:35:03] Jennifer: I plan to. So when you reached out to me, you talked about how fertility is very tied to our creativity and our essence and things like that. Well, I guess I just want to know more about that, and like, is that something that you include in your fertility work, and what does that look like?

[00:35:28] Josie: Like, do I include writing? You mean?

[00:35:32] Jennifer: Yeah. Or just like in general, like creative things for people to do.

[00:35:40] Josie: Oh my gosh. This is such a good question. I don't really, and I should. So yeah, this is going to be something that I definitely want to incorporate into my offerings and into my programs. Yeah, absolutely. Because that is such a key part of creating anything is getting in touch with that creative power. 

[00:36:01] Oftentimes I suggest to my patients to journal as a tool of self-regulation, de-stressing, just kind of getting things out. Also doing like a brain dump, you know, to really get things out of your head so you can see it on paper, so you can sleep at night, just so things aren't going around and around in your head.

[00:36:20] But I've never even thought of adding a creative aspect to that, which is nuts, but I've never thought of that. So thank you for bringing that up. So yeah. Now I would love to do something like that. Incorporate more just creative projects in general. Yeah. That's brilliant. I'm going to do it now.

[00:36:40] Jennifer: Yeah. Well, I mean, whatever you come up with, let me know. I'd be interested to hear what that looks like and also how it's received.

[00:36:49] Josie: Well, how can people find you? How can they sign up for your stuff and support you?

[00:36:55] Jennifer: Yeah. So I would say that probably the best way to find me is on Instagram. My handle as of now is Jemofadoula. And also for my birth work, you can follow United in Birth. And I usually post about what I'm doing on Instagram.

[00:37:18] Josie: Cool. Perfect. Yay. Well, thank you so much for being here today, Jen, this was so awesome. I loved chatting with you.

[00:37:26] Jennifer: Thanks for having me, I love chatting with you too.

[00:37:29] Josie: Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz. If you like the show and wanna hear more, tap subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and please leave us a review. It really truly helps.

The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez Boucher, and produced by For the Love Media with Original Music by Jen Korte.

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