Episode 20 - Eri Guajardo Johnson: Decolonizing Fertility and the Impact of Sexual Violence
Eri Guajardo Johnson views fertility as a deeply vulnerable and nuanced spiritual matter. This conversation, which weaves together themes of power, decolonizing practices, rape culture, and reproductive loss will have you considering just how deep and profound this conversation of fertility truly is.
[ID: A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 20: Eri Guajardo Johnson @BirthBruja and Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier @intersectionalfertility.]
Eri Guajardo Johnson (she/they) is a trained birth doula. They specialize in supporting survivors of sexual violence through and around the birth experience.
CW: Intimate partner violence and miscarriage.
Visit their website here, like her on Facebook, and follow them on Instagram here.
Episode Transcript:
Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.
[00:00:00] Josie: I'm Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our whole selves.
[00:00:24] Eri Guajardo Johnson is a queer, biracial birth worker, community educator, birth consultant for trauma survivors and founder of Birth Bruja, an online educational platform devoted to intersectional liberation and decolonial approaches to birth, work, healing, and life. Drawing upon her breadth of experience, supporting survivors of sexual assault, studying indigenous Mexican and Indian healing modalities, and obtaining their masters in women, gender, spirituality, and social justice from the California Institute of Integral Studies.
[00:01:01] She approaches birth work as a mechanism for individual and collective liberation. The Birth Bruja platform is a manifestation of Eri's passion for birth work as a spiritual liberation and decolonial practice. There they host a variety of facilitators who offer monthly birth work mentorship circles, continuing education workshops, reclaiming ancestral wisdom courses and more.
[00:01:34] Hi Eri. Thank you so much for being with us today. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:38] Eri: Thank you. I really, I'm really pumped to be here.
[00:01:42] Josie: Awesome. Will you share with us your pronouns and where in the world you're located?
[00:01:46] Eri: Yeah, Yeah. So my name is Eri Guajardo Johnson and my pronouns are, she/they. I reside in occupied Anishinaabe Potowatomi land aka metro Detroit area of Michigan.
[00:02:00] Josie: Cool. So I love to hear people's stories of what brought them to where they are today and the work that they do. Would you share your story with us of what led you to doing the work of Decolonizing Reproductive Healthcare?
[00:02:14] Eri: I will and I will try to make this as succinct as possible. Otherwise, that would be a multi, multi coffee cup venture for us. I mean, I have to begin with how I was born into this world. I am mixed race. My dad is white, predominantly German descent, and my mom is of Mexican descent. My mom's people are mostly from Michoacan and Leon of Mexico. And I don't know where my dad's people are from because in short there's so much intergenerational violence in my dad's family that each crop of children tried to distance themselves from their parents.
[00:02:58] So a lot was lost and I guess growing up as a lighter skinned, mixed person, my brothers are on my mom's side, I grew up with, my mom and my brothers have, we're all different family configurations. And so both of my brothers are of my older brother's full Mexican and my younger brother is half Mexican, half Cuban.
[00:03:21] And so basically the notion of relating to many, but belonging to none just in regards to ethnic and cultural connection that was something I was very aware from a young age. And then on top of that, the whole thing of so my parents were divorced when I was two, and so I grew, you know, some of my earliest memories, I always had two households.
[00:03:43] And so growing up into incredibly different cultural places in two very different socioeconomic places, let alone all the other differences. And then growing up being pansexual. So again, this notion of not being straight enough, not being queer enough, not being rich enough, but not being quote unquote poor enough to be down.
[00:04:04] Right? You know, like all these in betweens. So the notions of identity and the notions of the narrative of seeking, yearning for belonging. That's been with me from a really young age. And then flash forward into my young to mid twenties. I knew that the work I wanted to do in the world was centered around healing and justice.
[00:04:25] And I started working for San Francisco Women Against Rape, which is a women of color led community based rape crisis center out of San Francisco. And at the time that I was there, it was actually predominantly queer women of color led. So that was where I was able to not just deepen my political consciousness, but I was able to learn.
[00:04:48] Practice, right. Or like, or practice turning it into something that was not just some intellectual thing, right. But into a more embodied thing. And at the same time is when I started committing myself to spiritual work, to spiritual inquiry. And I first learned I first was invited to study Ayurveda, which is from India healing modality indigenous healing modality.
[00:05:17] And I have to, whenever I tell the story, I have to really deeply pause and give gratitude for for the land and the peoples of India because of how, despite all of their history of colonization and, and oppression the peoples have just really maintained and have been really generous with their study and practice of medicine.
[00:05:42] So studying that helped really, it helped me return home because I hadn't realized how much in relation to my, So in terms of ancestral practices, I was only exposed to my Mexican heritage and growing up, cuz again, in terms of my dad's side, there was no German, it was just straight up, it was American farmer culture. If there was, I guess, should I always say a specific more nuanced cultural reference.
[00:06:10] But, there was so much about Catholicism, that turned me off that I wrote off like so, so much about teachings that I was, you know, that I was taught. And so studying Ayurveda and reconnecting with the sacred feminine, in that lineage helped me return home and remember that I've had a deep connection with La Virgin de Guadalupe ever since I was a kid. And then because of Catholicism, I just kind of stopped, you know, because it just really, the association turned me off.
[00:06:46] And so anywho this, the spiritual being given the opportunity to reconnect to food as medicine to consider, To be reconnected with my body as a place of rhythms and my body as a place of wisdom. All of that gave me context to then turn and seek specifically to reconnect with my own indigenous Mexican heritage.
[00:07:08] And then flash forward again. All at the same time. Y'all, like, I'm working within the rape crisis movement. Right? I'm deepening and practicing my political analysis. And so flash forward becoming a birth worker. I'm a trained birth doula. But I would say that I'm probably more a full spectrum practice.
[00:07:28] And I specialize in supporting survivors of sexual violence through and around the birth experience. So when I launched into birth work, I carried with me all the nuggets that I've shared right just now around the political and spiritual consciousness, the healing and justice awareness. So all that being said, the language, the terminology can be called so many things, but I've over the years really embraced the notion of decolonial as like a foundation of my practice.
[00:07:57] Because decolonizing work is inherently intersectional. It's inherently anti-oppression. And I find it, for me, and especially in relation to reproductive justice, I find it particularly potent to use that framework of decolonial approaches because decolonial work centers black and indigenous peoples, and again, well all over everywhere you know, no systems of oppression are based upon the exploitation of black and indigenous folks, but specifically within reproductive justice specifically within modern practices of reproductive care.
[00:08:36] It is one million percent stolen most practices are stolen from black and indigenous midwifery and reproductive care practices. And literally the quote unquote science that we have based this all on was built upon the torture and experimentation on black and indigenous bodies. So, so there's a lot of reasons why, again decolonial approaches to care.
[00:09:02] And then one last thing I like to mention is, or I want to mention, is that decolonial approaches require that we simultaneously work not just around notions of identity and flesh, right. But also notions of spirituality. And interconnectivity can interconnectivity within ourselves and interconnectivity between us and our communities and us and the land.
[00:09:26] And that notion of spiritual and political practice, I think is what sets apart so many approaches to justice. And yeah, so the notion of decolonial approaches is just like everything. It's everything. So that, that is why, that is how, hopefully that was somewhat linear enough to make sense.
[00:09:48] Josie: It was, Yeah. No, it was very I really, you painted a picture. I can see it very clearly. Yeah. I love that. Thank you. Yeah, and I really want to dive into that intersection between you know, survivorship and healing and reproductive loss. Before we dive into that, I'm also really interested in the conversation around how do we decolonize our approach to fertility in particular. I know like, what, how do we do that?
[00:10:21] Eri: Yeah. So going back to the last nugget that I shared about how decolonial approaches are inherently interconnected. So thinking about, and also just to to be transparent I am entering this conversation as a survivor of sexual violence myself, and also as someone who has struggled with infertility.
[00:10:43] My ex, we recently separated, quasi recently separated. We were trying to have a baby for six years and we went through four miscarriages. So I feel in my body, what I'm about to share with y'all. Which is that fertility is such a physical and atomical thing.
[00:11:05] It is an emotional and a mental thing, it is a spiritual thing. And within the spiritual realm, I believe that it is both a spiritual in relation to our, the energies of what we've experienced in this lifetime, but also the energies and the spiritual history of what's come before us through our ancestral lineages.
[00:11:27] And so that's why I think fertility is such just like sexual violence, honestly. I think fertility is such a deeply vulnerable and nuanced thing. That to decolonize approaches to fertility means that it, my opinion is that it needs to be revered and considered as multifaceted.
[00:11:49] As what it means to be human. And it, and it doesn't mean to put it on a hierarchy, meaning like, Okay, like Josie, so first, first we're going to heal all of the trauma that you have dealt with in your body, and then we're gonna focus, You know, it's like, no, no, no. The beautiful thing about healing, and this is one thing I'm really outspoken about with the folks that I work with, is that healing itself is interconnected.
[00:12:12] So when we're focusing on, for example, within my own, within my own journey for me, I recognize, So ever since I started menstruating, I had a very irregular cycle. Okay. So that was just quote unquote my body's norm. So flash forward through multiple experiences of sexual assault, multiple bodily things.
[00:12:32] Disassociation is very common for most survivors of trauma. And that was my Chosen form of, of coping mechanisms. So very disembodied. So one of the huge practices that I was working with was simply trying to introduce red raspberry leaf tea, and touching my belly. At least three to four times a week.
[00:12:55] So that's a, so that's a very quote unquote physical practice, but holy kaka. Was that deeply emotional? Was that also deeply spiritual. Connecting to the literal symbolism of putting my own hands, my hands, hands, who I spent most of my life feeling like they are devoted to serving others, right?
[00:13:16] Like using these hands and using that energy for myself. Let alone that the plant medicine, right. Let alone what it takes in terms of prioritizing practices and making logistical room for it. So, it's also, again, the beautiful thing about healing is it's so interconnected that even if we focus on something, quote unquote, as simple as introducing a cup of tea twice a day.
[00:13:43] It connects to all of the realms of our being. And so I think as I'm imagining perhaps that this podcast also speaks not just to people who are on their own journey, but people who support others through fertility in my experience yes, I'm someone who's done the work to cultivate that awareness on my own, but working with practitioners who mirror that for me, who pause and give space for me to bring my intuition and my heart and my body based wisdom into the space who affirm that as important.
[00:14:18] That has made all the difference in my work of decolonizing my relationship to my womb space, let alone decolonizing my approaches and my work to reproductive care. Because even though, Oh, sorry I know I'm like going on and on, but one, one more thing and I'll stop.
[00:14:35] Josie: No, go.
[00:14:37] Eri: It's just, I feel like it's so easy to in this culture, to get hyper intellectual. And especially in the professional spaces where like, Oh, you know, like that sometimes it can feel the most urgent to be able to articulate perfectly. Rather than it being most important for us to embody.
[00:14:58] You know, to embody it and of course, embody it in a way that is most authentic. So sometimes it's gonna be really beautiful and elaborate, and sometimes it's gonna be really simple and it's gonna be a challenging relationship, but the embodiment is there of these practices. Yeah. And so I feel like working with practitioners, Who do the work to embody as best they can.
[00:15:20] It helps me take it out of my head space that says the colonized, you know, the colonized way of, Oh, I should be doing this. I should be doing that. I should, I should, I should. And just go back to my body.
[00:15:31] Josie: Yeah. I love that so much. I'm just like absorbing everything you just said in my body. I just, I feel like I wanna take like a breath right now to just like, Just like soak that in. I think that so many folks can get tripped up in their fertility journeys just exactly in the way that you just explained.
[00:15:55] In terms of feeling like they have to do it perfectly or know the answers intellectually or you know, that there, there's a right way and a wrong way to do something, and then if they don't get pregnant that that, you know, that their body failed.
[00:16:13] And you know, it's like, oof. It's just so much. It's just inundated with colonized thinking, Right. Of just, and also having to interact more with, you know, medical establishments and clinics and that way of quote unquote medicine or, you know, Walking into those scenarios can be pretty jarring and really displacing, you know, for a lot of folks, especially queer folks and BIPOC.
[00:16:41] So yeah, I just, I love that reminder of, of how we can like, take a step back and really check in with ourselves and our bodies and our ancestry and, you know, start small with little rituals like the tea and putting your hands on your own belly. That just like, even just hearing you explain that like, made me feel calm in my body, just like imagining like, ah, yes, it doesn't have to be hard. Like none of this has to be hard and I can invite my whole self to this process.
[00:17:17] Eri: It's so funny. Just as you reflected that so beautifully back to me, a little part of my brain is like, Yes. Yes. And I have to say, like, the other crucial part about specifically Decolonial work is doing the work to intellectually, mentally, emotionally, physically understand systems of power.
[00:17:42] And how, and so I have, I have to say that because I think, I don't want folks to see my first answer and be like, Oh, it's just, you know, rainbows and unicorns and lovey dovey bliss out and like, you know, no no no. Because so recognizing systems of power. Specifically going, going to what you said about like trying to inform ourselves.
[00:18:02] By understanding systems of power, it allows us to understand the systems of how we receive knowledge. And what knowledge we deem as legit. Versus what knowledge is not legit. Right. So critical thinking skills. So yesterday, last night on Birth Bruja the online educational platform that I founded.
[00:18:23] It's my baby. That is one giant birth I have had over the last year. Is it was community discussion around basically, Am I allowed to swear here?
[00:18:36] Josie: Yeah, go for it. I love swearing.
[00:18:38] Eri: Yeah. In, in short, it was this really halfassed research abstract. That was presented to a the American associate, the American Academy of Pediatrics. It was this really halfass academic research project where they submitted an abstract where the, their research, everything from the, the title of it to to the way that they gathered and analyzed their data was just so problematic.
[00:19:07] It was the title of their, of their project, of their paper. It was some, you know, blatant, boring thing. Like, you know, like the study of infant injuries between this year and this year, colon. And the increase of baby wearing as a fashion trend.
[00:19:29] Josie: Oh my gosh, you're kidding.
[00:19:31] Eri: Baby wearing. As a fashion trend.
[00:19:34] Josie: Eye roll.
[00:19:34] Eri: So Right. Major eye roll. And then, and then the whole launch of the study was basically, so the, the abstract was describing how it's a, it's it's dangerous practice and how people need to do a better job to educate folks on how to do it. Meanwhile, the American Academy of Pediatrics, AAP took that abstract, turned it into a press release with a really, with a very provocative title, and then, and then news stations across the, the globe pretty much took that sensational and increased it.
[00:20:08] Right? And so now it's just a whole big fuss about something baby wearing, baby carrying and baby backing are practices that have reached across the globe. and are still used today. And, and to just, and it's completely fucked up. To just blatantly write it off as dangerous without further understanding.
[00:20:31] Right. Around the statistics and also further understanding around the cultural uses of it. Right. And how and when folks would wear their babies and, and with, which technology they would use. Like using a sling is very different than using like, you know a more Western style carrier.
[00:20:51] So anyways, that's just one example about how. And in the panel discussion, we give a break, we meaning the incredible panelists that were there gave a beautiful breakdown about the study itself and why it was problematic. And why it was harmful. And then also giving a breakdown of looking at this from a decolonial standpoint, right.
[00:21:16] From a, a political standpoint, recognizing how this trend, this trend of institutions being really quick to jump on fear, right. And specifically jump on fear to de-legitimize what's most commonly indigenous practices, black and brown practices, like that is a, is part of the larger System of colonization.
[00:21:42] And so that is a trend. That is a trend. And so another big thing about decolonial work, in addition to, as I mentioned previously, right, like connecting to ourselves in a dynamic way, cultivating our, understanding of power and privilege, power systems.
[00:22:01] Is the last thing, is recognizing how colonialism, capitalism, patriarchy, all forms of oppression thrive off of us losing connection to ourselves. Us feeling like we can't trust our bodies. That we can't trust the traditions that are passed down because they're unsafe.
[00:22:24] Because they're backwards. Because, because. So that's also a nugget, I'd say. About in terms of us doing this work for ourselves and also the way that we work with clients. Mm-hmm. is knowing that every time we affirm our client's ability to connect to their own autonomy, to connect to themselves, To connect to their ability to make their own decisions.
[00:22:48] Whether it be quote unquote intellectual way of getting there or whether it be it, it's purely, you know instinctual. Right. Like whatever it is that right there, that work that we're doing that is. A key part of Decolonial work.
[00:23:02] Josie: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. That makes so much sense. And I'm thinking of so many scenarios where folks are giving over their power or not giving it, that's being taken in terms of their own knowledge about their own bodies and how their bodies ovulate or don't ovulate or what their, their particular cycle does.
[00:23:23] I'm thinking of patients of mine who have gone in to see their doctor and they just assume that they ovulate on day 14. Like that everyone ovulates on day 14. And it's like people's minds are blown when they start learning about their own cycle and realize, Oh, I ovulate on day nine, or I ovulate on day 23.
[00:23:40] You know, and it's like, where did this knowledge get taken from us along the way? I remember, you know, reading Taking Charge of Your Fertility so many years ago and just being like, Why isn't this taught in schools? Like, why isn't this, why did I have to go seek out this information?
[00:23:59] Eri: Is that a, was that a rhetorical question or? Purity culture, we do. Like purity culture. Exactly. Slut shaming, like I don't wanna give too much information, but I had a family member recently, a woman in her sixties who has had multiple babies. Literally just learn through our conversation that you can't get pregnant on every day of your every day.
[00:24:29] Josie: Wow. Yes. Right.
[00:24:30] Eri: Because the fear, the use of fear to try to shut down sensuality and sexuality was so huge. That first they were taught when they were kids that you can get pregnant through open mouth kissing with a boy. And then flash forward to this thing that they've, again, it just, it's wild to me that they've had three babies within the medical institutions. Yeah, purity culture and slut shaming. So deep.
[00:25:01] Josie: Totally, yeah, yeah. So thank you for bringing that up because my mind goes to so many different places of all the ways that we are disconnected from the fertility process in all these different ways. Yeah. And also something that came to my mind when you were talking about the baby wearing thing was it seemed like something similar happened with co-sleeping as well.
[00:25:26] Eri: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:26] Josie: Yeah, totally. Ugh, such bullshit.
[00:25:38] Eri: When you said that, I wish I had like a sticker. I just had this image of like a lunchbox with your face, with your microphone, and a quote. "Such bullshit." like that was just so poetic. I wish the listeners could have seen this idea.
[00:25:55] Josie: Merch idea!
[00:26:00] Eri: Bring back lunch boxes just for that. I love it.
[00:26:06] Josie: Okay. Should we switch gears into talking about reproductive loss and that intersection between sexual trauma survivors? Let's see. So cool. Yeah. So I would love to kind of dive in and kind of get your feeling and take on how particular like reproductive loss affects survivors of sexual violence specifically and, you know, what are some things that we can do to support those who have gone through something like that?
[00:26:37] Eri: Yeah, yeah. So, First off, it's important to acknowledge a few things. One, that so some common statistics that you'll find around sexual violence, specifically in relation to cisgendered women. Is a common statistic you'll find is one in four or one in three. So one in four or one in three women experienced sexual violence before their age of 24.
[00:27:04] And I counter that when I teach only with the fact of knowing that under reporting. So, those are statistics of people who actually went to the police. Or went to some sort of governmental institution to do that. And it's important to remember that most people don't report it.
[00:27:24] Because most sexual assault occurs with people that we know. And people that we trust. So relationship dynamics are so complex, such, if your parent is the perpetrator or your partner whom you love and actively have a life together as the perpetrator or someone who holds power over you, such as a boss or whatnot.
[00:27:48] So therefore there's a lot of motivation to not report. And so therefore, the statistic that I actually like to say when I work with folks is that realistically, I would say it's about half. Half of the folks that we serve, half of the people we're in communities with are survivors. And the other thing to note is that we live in a culture that embraces and perpetuates rape culture.
[00:28:17] So that means that we live in a culture that perpetuates this belief that women, people of color, folks that are disabled, queer and fem folks, that we live in a culture that perpetuates this belief that there are certain bodies who don't deserve control over themselves. And that if you have more power over another, that is part of your entitlement that's understood.
[00:28:42] And that's understandable that you would want to take power away. And we see that specifically in how in a lot of media advertising, a lot of you know, shows and whatnot that really centers the white, cis, heterosexual Christians, gaze. Where everything is fair game.
[00:29:03] Everything is just based on well A. Do I wanna fuck you kind of thing. So that is the culture in which we reside. And that plays a role about how normal it is for folks to be sexually assaulted. Straight up in college, for example it was really normal amongst my female friends, for folks to share stories of getting wasted and waking up in some dude's bed, that was supposed to walk them home or that was a friend.
[00:29:36] Just normal for folks to be walking through parties and getting their asses slapped. Or their bodies touched. And of course there'd be an eye roll or there'd be you know, swearing oh such a jerk or whatever. But it was normal!
[00:29:52] Josie: Yeah. For sure.
[00:29:53] Eri: And so I point this out because it's also important for us to realize that there's a lot of folks, a lot of us, and a lot of folks that we serve who have experienced violence in relation to getting a traumatic response within our bodies and our hearts.
[00:30:09] But it's so normalized that we don't recognize it as violence. So all of that, I guess, is like a foundation of this long ass answer that I'm giving you. So one also key thing about survivorship is that it is really easy for us as survivors to first go to shame and guilt.
[00:30:33] Meaning, if only I hadn't said that, you know, to provoke him. If only I was a better daughter or if I was a better student, if only I wasn't undocumented. If only I, you know, like shame and self blame. And guilt is so familiar Yeah. For us. And a lot of it honestly is because again, a rape culture and also patriarchy.
[00:31:00] Putting, putting the blame of sin on basically marginalized folks. But also a big part of it is because it's in terms of, it's really common and I think understandable that in a moment of feeling disempowered, blaming ourselves, can be interpreted as an attempt to get that power back.
[00:31:24] Josie: Oh, interesting. Yeah.
[00:31:26] Eri: Because that means that it's within my control, so I can make a change so that it won't happen again. So it's like, okay, I just will no longer wear that outfit or it's okay. I will just no longer go to those places or say that thing. I won't put myself out there.
[00:31:42] And so for some, again, it's understandable. It's like blame myself and feel more in control. So again, that's like the, I guess the foundation for understanding one way to understand the impact of sexual violence. So go, going back to your question around how reproductive loss can specifically impact survivors.
[00:32:05] Is that the narrative of shame and self blame and guilt is one of the first things to come. Because it's like, oh, if I wasn't so, if I wasn't so dirty. If I wasn't so damaged, If I wasn't so broken. If I wasn't so weak. And then also for a lot of survivors, there is this feeling of my body betrayed me.
[00:32:36] Because perhaps again, going to the examples about how for a lot of us it was our partners who assaulted. And so that gets complex when you are engaged in an intimate moment with a partner, and all of a sudden it goes, it goes to a degree that you didn't wanna do to begin with. But you were there, but maybe you were coerced to it, so maybe it wasn't like a outright no. But you were saying that now, or I'm not ready. Or maybe you were saying no, but then your partner tries to outsmart you or peer pressure you to you saying yes.
[00:33:15] Or maybe you don't say anything because you're so exhausted and insecure or depleted, whatever. That you don't wanna go through the labor of having to hold your boundary and explain to them how you actually do wanna hook up, but you don't wanna do that. Or not yet, right. So there's all these examples of like, that gray area of intimacy where, where we could feel like our body betrayed us.
[00:33:39] Cuz it's like oh if I wasn't so turned on, I would've been able to say, Or the mind fuck of, I guess I did want it because I got hard. Or because I got wet. Like, what does that mean? Like, oh, I can't tell anyone. I can't ask for help because I orgasmed. So the body, bodies are bodies.
[00:34:02] They're doing physiologically what they're oftentimes, you know, programmed to do. And so some folks internalize that as just one more reason to hate ourselves. One more reason why our body and how our body betrayed us. So flash forward again to the notion of reproductive loss, where our body let us down.
[00:34:28] Like we thought one thing and then the body did another. And yeah, so those are some of the huge things I think I wanna pause cuz that was a lot of words. But I think I wanna pause and just reiterate for folks that our body as a traitor, our body as something that we can't trust.
[00:34:47] Shame, guilt, and self blame. Being something that is so, that's such a familiar emotional shape that again, it can be easier for us to blame ourselves to think, Oh, it's just I did something wrong so I can fix it. I just have to figure out how I'm wrong and I can fix it. Rather than dealing with potentially the overwhelming fear of just entirely being out of control. Those are some of the huge themes that I think make a big difference when supporting someone who's a survivor.
[00:35:20] Josie: Wow. Yeah. That is so fascinating. I never thought of that way of self blame as a way to gain control back. That makes so much sense to me. Yeah. Wow. And also I'd like to maybe as we're pausing and sort of taking all that in also speak to what sorts of things can be considered a reproductive loss because there's so much, like, that's such an, a big umbrella.
[00:35:51] And also how, how important it is to validate all sorts of different types of reproductive losses. Yeah. Do you want to speak to a little bit about that, or do you want me to?
[00:36:03] Eri: I was just gonna say, I just said so many words and I was wondering, if you can answer that while also I take some sips of water.
[00:36:11] Josie: Perfect.
[00:36:12] Eri: It'll give people a break from my voice.
[00:36:15] Josie: Yeah. So some of the things that can be considered reproductive loss are, I think the obvious one that folks think about is you know, loss of pregnancy, you know, a miscarriage at any point, you know, during the, the process.
[00:36:30] But it can also be unsuccessful rounds of IUI or ICI or ivf. And then there's different layers, right, to those losses of, not only, Oh, we didn't get a baby out of this. But also like financial loss and time and energy loss, and the stress on, the relationships in your life. You know, those are all losses as well.
[00:36:57] And, you know, feeling like having struggles with fertility that can be its own loss. Yeah, there's so many, I think, parts of the process that can be that aren't seen as a quote unquote reproductive loss that I think really need to be validated for folks.
[00:37:18] Eri: Yeah. And I'd like to add termination of pregnancies.
[00:37:21] Josie: Yeah, right.
[00:37:22] Eri: Whether, whether it be for a medical reason or a logistical reason or whatnot. That also, Is can, can be experienced as, as a deep loss.
[00:37:32] Josie: Exactly. And I think that's something I learned about through king yaa's course is something called disenfranchised grief. So it's the, the type of grief that isn't seen as a valid loss. And to me something that brings up that disenfranchised grief is like a chosen loss. Like when it's something that you've chosen, you know, if you've chosen to, to terminate a pregnancy, for example.
[00:37:57] Yeah. Cause I feel that way a lot of times, like with my divorce for example, I chose the divorce. So it's like, well, how can you feel a loss? You know, people feel like, well, but you chose it. It was your decision. So then it's like, I feel like I can't grieve that loss in a way that feels as valid as grieving another loss that's more like culturally accepted.
[00:38:23] Eri: Yep. That's binary thinking right there. That's like colonized good, bad. Right, wrong. Black, white.
[00:38:31] Josie: Yeah. Totally. So, yeah. That's so interesting. Cool. How do you feel about shifting into another question?
[00:38:39] Eri: I am so down. I am down for all of this.
[00:38:42] Josie: Okay. Awesome. So we talked about kind of how reproductive loss can affect someone who is a survivor of sexual trauma. So what are some ways that someone can specifically take care of themselves? or that someone can help to support someone who's a survivor and just experienced a reproductive loss.
[00:39:02] Eri: So how do I wanna answer this? Let's start by understanding how trauma can impact the body. So some common effects of trauma can be things such as cultivating or bringing up the fight, flight, freeze, and appease response within us.
[00:39:28] And so that can look like someone becoming incredibly combative. Someone becoming hyper appeasing. Right? So like hyper nice, like really nice, too nice where they're so caught up in other people's feelings to the detriment of their own. It could also look like complete disassociation and shut down where they have flat affect in terms of facial expressions.
[00:39:51] They're. They don't really notice their body, so maybe they like, hold their urine for way too long, or they're constipated or they stop eating right. Or another end of the spectrum where they're so disassociated from their body that perhaps they overeat or just emotionally eat, trying to get that feeling.
[00:40:12] And so also some people choose self-harm methods such as cutting, for example, because the pain is a way of connecting to their body and they feel through like it the fluff or the fuzz of being disassociated and numb. So those are just some examples of what that can look like.
[00:40:30] And when it comes to the brain, a trauma response on the brain is a very, very tangible and specific response. Which means that literally when we're activated in a trauma mindset, blood flow, for example, shifts from the front of our brain to more focusing on the back of the brain, which is like our reptilian brain.
[00:40:55] And so that triggers our survival mechanisms, which is fight, flight, freeze, appease, et cetera. And so when our back part of our brain is the most activated, that means that it becomes that much more difficult for us to use our cognitive thinking abilities, our problem solving abilities, our memory can significantly be impacted.
[00:41:19] And so I'm painting this picture because for many of us, when we're really overwhelmed in general with fear or anxiety or anger, when we're really overwhelmed, it's almost like tunnel vision. Where it's really hard for us to remember what we have in the cabinet of our kitchen. Let alone, Oh, what was that breath practice? Or what was that meditation? Or what was that book? Or, or what was that thing that helped me?
[00:41:45] It's really hard to be resourceful cognitively when we are in trauma mode. So I think it's important to have a basic under, So specifically when supporting others. I think it's important to have a really basic understanding of how trauma can impact in just those simple ways. Because it can create a lot more room for compassion. And also it can help us be a better support when we brainstorm soothing techniques. Or, or support methods.
[00:42:18] So, so that being said, for survivors who, who are actively going through a healing process or the, just the processing of loss, survivors are statistically a lot more likely to have more amplified experiences of trauma, right? Cuz the loss itself is a trauma, right? And survivors are more likely to have amplified versions.
[00:42:43] So that could look like having nightmares. That could look like having digestive issues. That could look like again, like memory loss, severe disassociation. mean there's so many like migraines. And so for some folks, they for some survivors, they're aware of the connection.
[00:43:00] You know, between these manifestations and what they felt previously. But most folks are not. So for, if we're talking about taking care of ourselves and if we're talking about taking care of others, again, like pausing, taking a step back and looking at it from a holistic perspective is most helpful, right?
[00:43:22] So like, are they eating? Am I eating? Am I hydrating? Am I sleeping right? Can I feel my hands? Can I feel my belly? What does that mean when I can't? And then, you know, starting from there, because candidly, if someone's not sleeping, if they're having two hours of sleep, if they're not able to eat because their anxiety is so bad that they're vomiting or they're nauseous, then potentially, it's not gonna be that helpful or they're not gonna have a huge capacity to really dive into and unpack grief if their bodily basic needs aren't being met.
[00:44:03] So, and then one other thing I guess I'll share is so to give folks a tangible example of what that looks like. So my first miscarriage we lost baby at 10 weeks and it was incredibly violent. And I say that because I went from spotting to passing most of the tissue in less than 48 hours.
[00:44:25] Like I had like straight up hardcore contractions. And I share that, I wanna share that because A. I never heard of that. Like, most folks don't talk about miscarriage to begin with, but when they do they describe it, at least what I've heard is it's a longer process and it's more like menstrual cramping.
[00:44:42] This will straight up a labor. And so just the violence of what was happening in my body and the violence of seeing the fetal contents, it really, it forced me to come back to my body and it forced me to deal with it. And my response to the miscarriage was rage.
[00:45:08] And so I went from, I would have to go to the bathroom to change, you know, to change pads, change panties, cuz I would bleed through everything. And I would then go back to the couch and I would numb out on fast food, candy, TV. And then when I had to go to the bathroom again for whatever reason, I would then would bawl, and I would cry, and I would rage, and then I'd go back to being disassociated.
[00:45:33] And so one of the first practices that I did after those first two days was I started to become more aware of water. Cause I wasn't drinking water and I was feeling like shit and I was getting migraines. And so even the act of reminding myself to drink water made me angry. Because I wanted to punish my body.
[00:45:59] Cause my body betrayed me. And so I was angrily drinking water. And then I just, I used that as an example because then what happened was that is just, it's an example of how everything's connected. And how my emotional and mental and spiritual and physical act of hydrating myself brought me to my healing journey in a very specific way where I had to deal with my rage, I had to work through it.
[00:46:32] And then I had to work through my sorrow. To continue to connect to nourishing my body. And then I had to, you know what I mean? So it was like layers and layers all were unpacking itself simply from the practice of hydrating during such a time where disassociation and rage was my primary go to.
[00:46:52] Wow. So that's why we need to approach this, be sure to approach this from a holistic perspective and not just prioritizing, you know, one realm over another.
[00:47:05] Josie: Right. Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that story with us. I can, I mean, I can see that so clearly and I can see how it's such a non-linear process and you know, a messy process and allowing it to be messy and you know, just kind of reaching for what you can reach for in the moment, you know? And then also I think doing it little bit at a time, you know, like taking a break seems like that might be helpful instead of letting it, you know, feeling like you have to process all of it at once.
[00:47:44] Or for me, when I feel rage, when I feel anger, it scares me. And so I feel like you know, I can get to the point where it feels like there's no end to it. And I feel scared of like, what I could do in that frame of mind. I liked hearing that it was like taking breaks then to go watch TV and eat some junk food and, you know, just kind of like numb out again and then like approach it again later, you know? I like that.
[00:48:14] Eri: Yeah. I mean, I can't believe I'm about to make this association with that cycle, but hearing you reflect that back to me, what I'm hearing is that that was, yeah like that was a mini cycle. And, and another key aspect of, of indigenous wisdom is acknowledging seasons. You know, that there is a time to plant seeds, and a time to tend, and a time to harvest, and a time to rest.
[00:48:40] And so specifically around challenge and trauma, we need room to digest. Yeah. Just like how we need tools to learn how to, you know saw off another little piece of, you know, stuff to process, right? Like, like we need the knife on the fork, for example, right? To learn how to saw off that part. And then we need time to consume it, to digest it, to utilize the lessons that are there for us and to release everything else.
[00:49:12] And that's something that I think in a lot of Western approaches to healing can be lost because of this emphasis on this linear approach to healing. Like as if it's like an end point. You know? It's like, all right. Stick with me kids, and in like, in six weeks, you too shall be- you know, it's like No, no, no. Right. So approaching this as seasons is really crucial.
[00:49:36] Josie: I love that. And it reminds me of you know, when I'm working with patients, I feel like I can only meet them where they're at, you know, in terms of, I'm not gonna be telling someone, you know, here's a food list for you to do. If they're not, like you said, they're not hydrating or eating meals regularly, it's like, let's start from where you're at and support you as in that way. Is that, am I understanding that right, is that a good way to approach it?
[00:50:06] Eri: Absolutely. I mean, cuz you're A. You're affirming their autonomy, right? Like you're affirming where they're at and what that, whether or not you're overtly asking them to define it for themselves, you embodying that encourages them to pause and to reflect on what is it that they need.
[00:50:30] And a lot of times I think hopefully this makes sense, but going back to this notion of binary thinking, so many folks are already in the good-bad, right-wrong that, to have to work with a practitioner that doesn't reinforce that binary thinking, that in itself, without even saying anything, that in itself could be wild.
[00:50:49] Cuz it's like, Oh wow. Like they didn't tell me that I was supposed to be doing this and this. They didn't tell me that I'm supposed to be feeling this and this. Like, okay.
[00:51:01] Josie: Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I love that. That really makes sense to me. Another way I've heard it described as like a faucet to like turn the faucet on to like, deal with a little bit and then turn it off, you know, so it's like we don't have to just have like a rushing river, like all at once.
[00:51:20] Eri: Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Cool, cool.
[00:51:24] Josie: Well, I would love to know, is there anything else first before I move on to sort of our last question around the whole self and connecting with your essence and that kind of thing. Is there anything more about like reproductive loss and with that intersection between sexual trauma, survivorship that you wanted to touch on?
[00:51:42] Eri: For a lot of survivors, their experience of violence and then the recovery process is something that we've done alone. It's something that we've done alone. Something that we haven't articulated to many folks. And for a good percentage of people, we may have actually shared it with folks, but the response that we got was violence or shut down or dismissive or whatnot.
[00:52:11] So the narrative of, So again, there's a narrative of I'm supposed to be doing this alone. And I have to, to protect myself. Right. So people also have that narrative when it comes to loss. Right. Reproductive loss, for a variety of reasons. Especially for folks who, who don't wanna share because maybe they're trans and they, you know, they don't want to feed a family member's belief that, you know, Well, you weren't supposed to be pregnant anyways.
[00:52:39] You know, so there's a variety of reasons why folks wouldn't but again, speaking specifically to survivors, one of the most profound opportunities for healing, in my opinion. Is what can happen when we share it with someone who actually is worthy of our trust.
[00:53:02] And who reflects back our survivorship and our strength and our resilience. Yeah. And I'm not talking about someone who will be logically being like, Oh well, that wasn't, you know. Well, it's okay. Like trying to go back into the nitty gritty of your story and then like trying to change, like, I'm not talking about that.
[00:53:23] Right. But I'm talking about someone who will look you in the eyes or, or be with you in deep presence and hear that story and not see you as a weak disempowered victim. But we'll hear that story and see like, wow. You know, we'll feel in their body Wow. Like you experienced that and you are as vibrant as you are.
[00:53:46] Or you are as creative as you are. You are as loving as you are. Like that is that is such a holy space. And so if I could wave a magic wand, and I know that, you know, in hardcore introverts, y'all maybe like, you know, dry heaving at this, but straight up like especially for survivors, let alone survivors who are going through reproductive loss, Y'all, it is really important for us to go and be seen, like go and be witnessed.
[00:54:15] So if there is a chance to call a hotline, if there's a chance to go to a support group, specifically if you're queer, if you're bi, if you're undocumented, like if there is aspects of your identity that are huge in your experience of this loss, try to connect with people who reflect those identity dynamics.
[00:54:34] Because then you won't have to say as much, You won't have to explain, you won't have to, you know, you won't have to change the way you tell the story because you don't want to perpetuate any stereotypes or whatnot. You know, like be a representative of your people. You don't have to worry about that.
[00:54:53] Yeah. So, so I think that's the other nugget that I would share is the importance of us doing the work to be witnessed by others and then ideally to also witness them.
[00:55:03] Josie: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Thank you. That's amazingly helpful to think of that. Yeah. Great. Well, something I love to ask all my guests is in Chinese medicine and the fertility method that I teach when we get in touch more with our essence or our authentic self, we can actually access more of our creative power or our fertility.
[00:55:29] So I like to ask folks if you have any like, personal practices or rituals in place that allow you to connect with your essence or your authentic self?
[00:55:40] Eri: Woo so interesting to be asked this. Because I have a friend who's who's staying with me right now, a friend and colleague. Her name is Erica Marcia. I'm giving a shout out because Erica is an incredible teacher and she's we are lucky enough to have her on the Birth Bruja platform anyways. Erica is a, she's a good endera, she's a writer. She's an artist, and her embodiment of her creative practices is so profound. Like she's a poet.
[00:56:12] Like I have never seen or felt in my body someone, and she wouldn't be embarrassed if I were to frame it like this. Like someone truly emotionally and energetically like make love to food in their mouth. Like the way that her dedication to her creativity and her pleasure, it's like all wrapped up in one. And so to witness her ecstasy of being in her body. And to see how that comes out through her creative expressions has just been so unbelievably inspiring.
[00:56:50] So I say this because the answer, what I would've said a week ago now I realize is so weak sauce, like straight up. I'm gonna answer your question the way I want to shift and I want to be. So I want to be more diligent in just as I prioritize my work sessions. Throughout the week I want to be diligent about prioritizing time to connect to my pleasure, joy and self-expression.
[00:57:27] And that self-expression piece candidly has been something that I have minimized for many years now. Because of, I also shared was going through a divorce and then I was building out Birth Bruja and I was trying to do all these things and I have no regrets. It was beautiful, but also talk about seasons. I harvested a lot and now it's time that I rest and I rejuvenate the soil.
[00:57:54] And so so for me, self-expression is like, it's exciting, but it's also scary. And especially self-expression where in this day of social media, cuz Birth Bruja an online thing. So most of our most of our advertising is via social media. And so one of the gross things that has happened is when I have an experience in my life, sometimes I think about how can I turn that into a post?
[00:58:22] Or like, how can I turn that into a workshop? How can I incorporate that into serving others? And then what happens is I unintentionally, inadvertently cheapen my own experience, my own embodiment, because I'm trying to, cuz I'm turning it into a product. And so I'm also really excited about being committed to self-expression with the intention of not sharing this and not turning it into a project so that I am creating more room for me to connect to the ugly.
[00:58:56] To connect to the uncertainty. And also, almost more importantly for me is to connect to the questions that I still have within me. Because again, and like in today's world, patriarchy says we're supposed to be experts. And we're supposed to portray ourselves as experts and we're supposed to be powerful and in control at all times.
[00:59:17] And having questions is a weakness. Cause it means you're not in control and you're not the expert. And that's obviously bullshit. Growth and transformation, humility and integrity, those are all reliant on us being aware of our growing edges. And so, Yeah, that's how I am looking forward to connecting to my creativity and my life essence.
[00:59:42] Josie: Ugh, I love that answer. I wanna do the same.
[00:59:46] Eri: Yeah!
[00:59:50] Josie: Oh, good. Well this has been such an honor and such a joy to have you here and hold this space and have this conversation with you. I've learned so much yet again, I've learned so much from you already before this conversation and various different classes that I've taken from you. But this has been incredible. Thank you so much. I know that so many people are going to get so much from this conversation and feel so seen also.
[01:00:16] Eri: Thank you. And thank you Josie, for inviting me. I was super pumped, . And I also for those of y'all, Josie gave this really generous IG live on the Birth Bruja platform. If you go to birthbruja.com you actually will be able to click to see that their interview.
[01:00:34] So I was, you're a legit friend. But also I just wanna say too, that podcasts and the way that you've woven this one, podcasts are so much labor and I think most people don't know how much work goes into it. So I just wanna honor that and also to honor the intentional way that you've woven and curated these conversations.
[01:01:02] Straight up, if you were, if this would be the last one. And this would just to be, you know, just this standalone nugget in the universe. Like it is a huge, powerful resource and I hope that you can pause and be proud of. Of what you're, what you're doing with your life. This is amazing.
[01:01:19] Josie: Thank you so much. Thank you. Oh, thank you. That makes me feel warm and fuzzy. And lastly, I want to know will you share with us how people can find you and support you and learn from you and all, all the things?
[01:01:33] Eri: Thank you. Yes. So I'm on Facebook and Instagram @birthbruja and BHA is B as a boy, R U J A. Birthbruja.com is the website. It's an online educational platform and each month we have a variety of offerings that range from workshops to support groups. For example, we have an ongoing support group right now for queer non gestational parents. And in 2022, I'm gonna be launching an ongoing support group for survivors of sexual violence.
[01:02:05] So a big range of offerings. And the best way, because social media is shit and algorithms, algorithms are so obnoxious, so straight up the best way to be notified of the schedule is to sign up for the emails. And I technically scientifically hate emails , so I try not to irritate the public with like too many.
[01:02:31] So, so yeah, that's the best way. That's it. Yo, thank you.
[01:02:36] Josie: All right. Thank you so much, Eri.
[01:02:39] Eri: Thank you, Josie.
[01:02:47] Josie: Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility Podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz. If you like the show and wanna hear more, tap, subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, and please leave us a review.
[01:03:11] It really truly helps. The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and produced by For the Love Media with Original Music by Jen Korte.
All content offered through The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is created for informational purposes only, it is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.