Episode 70 - Veronica Agard: Preparing for the Next Generations of Ancestors (Part 1)

Veronica Agard, also known as Ifáṣadùn Fásanmí (she/her) is a poet, writer, abọ̀rìṣà, community educator, connector, and founder of Ancestors in Training™. In today's episode, Veronica discusses her journey with finding her spirituality and its connection with ancestor work. Josie and Veronica also touch upon intergenerational healing, storytelling, activism, and establishing a mind body connection.

[ID: A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 70: Veronica Agard @ancestorsintraining and Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier @intersectionalfertility.]

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Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.

[00:00:00] Josie: I'm Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast, where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our Whole Selves.

[00:00:32] Hello friend, welcome back to the podcast, or welcome for the first time, if this is your first time listening. Before we get started today with our wonderful conversation with Veronica from Ancestors in Training, I want to do a very imperfect genocide and grief acknowledgement similar to a land acknowledgement.

[00:00:55] This is what I learned from Oumou Sylla, who was on the podcast as well. You can listen to their episode, it was episode 67. Oumou is a therapist, a speaker, a writer, a facilitator, and coach, and offers an incredible program called Radical Mental Health First Aide, so I definitely highly recommend checking that out, and just following them and supporting them.

[00:01:19] And yeah, this is where I learned about this possibility of offering a genocide and grief acknowledgement is from Oumou. And I encourage you to do the same in your spaces that you're in. So I just want to take a moment for kind of all of us to maybe take a, take a deep breath and feel as centered as we are able to in this moment.

[00:01:49] And to acknowledge that we are existing on a planet where there are multiple genocides happening in real time and also recently, you know, in recent time, and the repercussions are still very much happening in real time. And it's happening in places like the Democratic Republic of Congo, like Sudan, Haiti, Myanmar, Iraq and Syria, Sri Lanka, Guatemala, there are so many more, the list goes on and on, and of course, Gaza and Palestine right now.

[00:02:29] So, I just want to acknowledge that we are you know, also on fertility journeys, we're also existing within capitalism and reconciling how to, you know, continue going about our day and, you know, trying to support ourselves and our families, you know, concurrently with all of this going on, we're also trying to deal with our own trauma and healing while there is, you know, such violence, such pain you know, happening all over the world. 

[00:03:04] We're feeling this collective pain and grief on top of, you know, everything else that we are experiencing just by being human. 

[00:03:13] So one of my teachers, Atava, says that, When we work on our own bodies, we are working on the collective. And I love this. I love this concept and it makes so much sense to me. I feel like we all have a role in the collective healing of the planet, of you know, our fellow humans, we all have a role.

[00:03:37] I think when we, when we do any bit of healing or attention on ourselves and you know, working on our own bodies, you know, we're all made from the same elements of the Earth. And when the Earth is hurting, we feel it. When a group of people are hurting. We feel it. We are all connected in that way, we're all made from the same stuff. 

[00:03:58] And so, yeah, I do believe that we, we each have a role to play in, in this collective healing moment that we're in and will continue to be in. And yeah, I just want to acknowledge that that's happening. And we are going to continue with our fertility journeys and doing what we are doing on a day to day basis, as well as showing up, you know, where, and when we can to put an end to this pain and suffering and genocide.

[00:04:31] So yeah, continue showing up in marches, continue calling your representatives, continue boycotting and divesting, you know, where you can, doing all the things. And just sending you so much love as we all navigate this and figure out how to be good stewards of our land and, you know, good stewards of Our human siblings, you know, all around the world.

[00:05:03] I will also be over in our Qmunity. If you want to come join us there after the episode, as always, you are welcome to. You can go to my website, intersectionalfertility.com and click on Qmunity, and there's a free version and a paid version. You can always come continue the conversation over there, watch the video version of each episode.

[00:05:27] If you want to upgrade your membership to the paid version, which is $26 a month, you can watch extra podcast content and bloopers and get access to a growing library, actually, of fertility webinars that I've given every month for the past several months. I believe, I believe now there's five of them so you'll get access to those.

[00:05:48] There's also some pre-recorded fertility webinars available in the community that you can buy for $35 each. There's three of them. And I will also be doing a fundraising campaign for the podcast and for the scholarship programs for Fertile. and that will be selling the merch, the Intersectional Fertility merch that is absolutely gorgeous.

[00:06:11] If you haven't checked it out yet, you can go to intersectionalfertility.com and click on shop. And you'll see we have so many beautiful designs that say queer families are the future and de gender reproductive health. There's lots of different colors and sizes and there's hoodies and mugs and tank tops and kids shirts and, Journals. Yeah, it's just, it's, it's a great variety of beautifully designed merch. 

[00:06:37] So please consider that during this holiday season and during this, you know, if you're doing any kind of gift shopping, you know, Intersectional Fertility, merch is a great gift idea as well. Yeah, it, takes, you know, time, lots of time and energy and money unfortunately to run this podcast, and any support would be greatly, greatly appreciated.

[00:07:00] Yeah, this is a labor of love for me and you know, raising the funds to make it happen is crucially important to be able to keep it going. So I, so, so much appreciate your support if you're able to. So again head over to intersectionalfertility.com and click on shop and you'll see all our beautiful merch. 

[00:07:21] So I hope you enjoyed today's episode with Veronica, once again, we found ourselves wanting a part two. Like we did with Candice's episode. I do not know exactly when these part twos will be coming to you but I am doing all I can to make that happen for you. Things are a little you know, not business as usual right now, which is totally understandable given all that's going on.

[00:07:45] So just doing our best and yeah. You can look forward to those part twos, coming at some point. And in the meantime, enjoy this part one with Veronica and I will see you over in our Qmunity.

[00:08:09] Veronica Agard is a poet, writer, community educator, and connector at the intersections of Black identity, wellness, representation, and culture. She experiments with creative healing modalities and puts theories learned into practice. She curated the Who Heals the Healer series and the conference by the same name, and facilitates the Ancestors in Training educational project. 

[00:08:36] Her initiatives are housed in her freelance platform, Vera Icon LLC. Described as living in the future, Veronica is guided by the past and carries out her dreams in the present. Welcome to the podcast, Veronica. 

[00:08:51] Veronica: Thanks so much for having me. It's always funny when I hear my bio back because I've written it in pieces. And then I'm always just like, oh yeah, I do a lot. 

[00:09:02] Josie: I know, totally. For listeners who are joining us today, we just went through your much longer bio and it is super impressive. This is the truncated version. 

[00:09:16] So will you share with us your pronouns and where you're joining us from and anything else you'd like to introduce yourself?

[00:09:23] Veronica: Yeah, sure. So my name is Veronica Agard. I am also known as Ifáṣadùn Fásanmí in my tradition, which is Ifa. I use she her pronouns and I'm calling from The land that raised me, which is Ramapough Lenape Territory. I live on the side that got drawn up as New York State. I say it like that because the Lenape Territory and borders, water borders was born on Lenape land outside of Fort Dix, New Jersey, army kiddo. 

[00:09:59] My ancestors called a lot of places home and the ones that I know are Guyana, St. Kitts and Barbados on my father's side. With a splash of Portugal because, you know, colonization. Which is a whole other rabbit hole conversation around identity and I'll save that for later. And then my mother's people called Alabama home, Muscogee Creek peoples and enslaved Africans.

[00:10:29] So yeah I'm really grateful to the stewards of the lands that I just named, but specifically the Ramapough folks who are still doing a lot of work. If you take nothing from this conversation, Indigenous folks are still here, don't put them in the past tense. 

[00:10:48] The Indigenous folks that are the stewards of what we now call New York City and the New York City surrounding area are very much doing a lot of work. Not situating Indigenous people in the past and actively learning what's happening on the land that you're a guest on is a part of what I think should be the floor of a land acknowledgement. 

[00:11:07] That's not just when we speak, but when our everyday experience, what we support, what we don't support. Narratives that we push forward, narratives that we challenge, right? 

[00:11:17] Josie: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for modeling that. Yeah. 

[00:11:21] So, what is the story that led you to do the work you do as a poet, a writer, and this word, this beautiful word that you just told me how to pronounce, how do you pronounce it?

[00:11:31] Veronica: Abọ̀rìṣà. 

[00:11:32] Josie: Abọ̀rìṣà. And community educator and connector. What is the story and then also what is an abọ̀rìṣà? I would love to know. 

[00:11:39] Veronica: The story is, I'm recording this in the house I raised me, which means that as we're shuffling things of like my adult life versus my, my younger life, I've realized that I've always been a writer.

[00:11:55] Like I always kept a journal. Even did little like, what we would now call like manifestation things of like, sixth grade me was very much invested in joining marching band, like, so I had a, like, I had a little checklist of like, I will join marching band. I will do this. Like, I will do that.

[00:12:14] And it was funny because younger me then went back and checked it off. So I see that to see what people are like, wow. Like, Veronica, you do all these things. I'm like, apparently I've always been like this. I've always been like this. It's just that you know, or the, the drama in me, like now comes out in poetry, but as my mother will tell you, I've always been dramatic.

[00:12:39] I've always had a touch of the dramatics. Whether I was in theater or just, you know what was it? I was a music and arts kid. So writing, thespians, even in marching band, I was a drummer. What was it? Which was in the tradition of Southern Black marching band. So like it was the whole thing. We had to dance the whole entire time.

[00:13:05] What else? Always what we, there's a meme somewhere. Where it's like, tell me you're a witch without telling me you're a witch, if you used to go outside and bring things inside and mix it up. And I was like, Oh no! So like my mom one day was like, do you remember when you would just sit there and like mix stuff up in the kitchen?

[00:13:29] I'm like, yeah, the kids would call that kitchen witching now. Like, so there's certain things, certain things I'm just like, Oh wow. Like I've always been like this. I've always been what was it? My teachers used to say things like, Oh, she's been here before. She's an old soul. Like, there's certain things that younger me like as whimsical and silly as I am, like, that is also true.

[00:13:53] But I've also been very much like, concerned about the ways of the world or had a perspective that was a couple of steps ahead of my peers, which at the time made me, younger me feel weird, but now older me looking back in the inner child work, I'd just be like, nah sis, you were just a little bit ahead, it's okay. 

[00:14:13] Like it's going to make a lot more sense when you get older and you find certain things. So I'm recording this in my grandmother's room and you can't see it, but there is a poster. of an Orisha, Orishas are the personifications of the forces of nature. They include like 400 plus, like different forces. 

[00:14:39] But a lot of the popular ones are Oshun, Sango, Yemaya, Oya, or she's also known as Yansa. And I didn't know this at the time, but when I lived here as a child, my grandmother always lived across the hall. She still does. And one of her co workers went to Brazil, which is funnier because I've gone twice within a year because I love it there.

[00:15:05] And it's related in a moment, but essentially her co worker said that she described her to some of the priests and things that she encountered there. And they said, Oh, she sounds like a Yansa or a Oya. Oya is, she rides into battle ahead of Shango. That's one of her husbands, emphasis on one of. 

[00:15:28] She is a super fierce warrior, mother of nine, the marketplace. Very much speaks her mind, like rides the wind. She's known as like the harbinger of change. Like we're recording this in Scorpio season. So there's very much like death and rebirth and those kinds of cycles. Or like having strength, or I don't want to say resilient because especially with the way that that has been used against black women specifically, but that's the only one I have right now.

[00:16:01] So her coworker described her to the folks and they said, Oh, she reminds us of this. Turns out that I didn't know that these the things that the coworker brought back gifts to Yansa that have her image. I didn't know that this was in the room across the hall from me until I want to say maybe a couple of years ago, I'm 33.

[00:16:22] So I only found that out maybe at 31. And I was like, this was in the house the whole time, in my Catholic grandmothers, well, both of my grandmothers were Catholic, but when one of them has passed, but I was like, This was in my grandmother's room the whole time? This was across the hall? Bro, what? So, fast forward, it's 2016.

[00:16:46] I, as a survivor, find that in order for me to reconnect to my body, you have to trick me. So like, younger me would do ballet. Yeah. You already heard I did marching band. I very much can do mindbody things. Give me something to do. Right. If you play a certain song that we did in marching band, I might remember the routine, right?

[00:17:07] Because it forced me to go inside of my body and get out of my mind. Yeah. A practice that helped me get out of my mind in 2016 was capoeira, which is the Afro Brazilian martial art that has a deep relationship with Candomblé, deep relationship with the Colombos and the histories of, the ways in which enslaved Africans resisted down there.

[00:17:31] And a friend of mine was teaching Capoeira at the time and the long story short=ish is that One of my guardian Orishas is Oya, right, who was apparently across the hall from me the whole time. The, the other one is Shango, which is very much the, the ideas that we have the masculinity around for fertility and dancing and, you know, the life of the party kind of energy.

[00:18:04] He's very much business and strategy battle hardened, but also can be soft. Like he he's thunder and lightning, but also has a special relationship with the rain, right. And rain water and there's a beautiful story of like how he became an Orisha that I'm- podcast for another time, but he was the, he was and is the guardian Orisha of my former capoeira group.

[00:18:35] And I didn't know that until the capoeira master at the time who is initiated in Candomblé. was talking to me about it. And I was just like, Oh, so we've been singing to like, Oh, so, and I started to thread some of the things together. The storyteller in me was like, oh okay, I can put this here and draw this here.

[00:18:55] And sew this thread of like, Oh, I, this resonates with me. Why does this resonate? Right. Or like, why does, why do I feel at home in a practice that isn't necessarily mine or Indigenous to where my ancestors came from? But as my Former Capoeira master who is from Bahia from Salvador specifically, which if you know anything about Brazil, that is one of the highest concentrations of Black folks outside of the continent of Africa.

[00:19:24] He said to me that because I am a daughter of the Black diaspora, I have just as much as, if not more of a claim to ancestral Black traditions just because of when my ancestors survived. So all of that swirled around to, encourage me to get a reading. And to encourage me to find my now godfather in my tradition.

[00:19:50] Who also plays Capoeira and is also descended from Guyanese folks. And I was like, Oh, yeah, yeah. This is allowed. Like, yep mhm. Oh, and you're, oh, and you're a Sagittarius too. Oh, yeah. But we, we don't get along just fine. So I completed our rites of passage that now allows me to say that I am an abọ̀rìṣà, which just means that I'm a baby in the tradition.

[00:20:15] It's a beautiful word, but that's all that means. Nice. I like that. That's all that means. I felt that it was important to explain the how of how we got there. Especially for the, for folks that watch the YouTube video. You'll see that I have some of my elekes on, which are some of my ties to some of the energies that are either guiding me or depending on what we're talking about or depending on the day of the week, I'll wear different ones.

[00:20:45] So right now I'm wearing the one for my ancestors or egungun with Yemaya and Oshun just given the topic, and we're talking about fertility and birthing, I was like, you know what, let me put the water on. I also am a very, like, Sango and Oya have a very fiery connotation, so I'm kind of fiery.

[00:21:08] So I need, I need water sometimes. So I brought the water out. Just as a reminder to be to keep, keep the fire, but also like to be, you know, to be a little sweet and to embrace the, the lover girl in me, which we'll talk about later. 

[00:21:26] Josie: Oh, I love that. Wow. What a beautiful story. I can just see so much like imagery so clearly of all this. Yeah, even just talking about how you got to where you are and doing the work you do. You are such a storyteller. You can tell. Yeah. Amazing. 

[00:21:44] So, I loved reading that you, with every opportunity, you name the power of storytelling and being believed in. That like gave me goosebumps when I read that. Will you say more about that? And I just agree with that so much. 

[00:21:59] Veronica: Yeah, so, especially as a survivor of some things when I was a child, there's so much power in, and even in those moments that are horrible, right, of being believed in. Right, off rip, no questions asked, right, not everybody can say that, which is why it's not that moment only, but just saying that to say that some of my work since, or at least what I'm known for in this present moment, which started in 2012, really. 

[00:22:35] And I'm saying that like, that was like, yeah, that was a couple years ago. Like no, fam, that was 12 years ago, because when it's time, because the COVID years, I'm like, it's still, the summer of 2019 was not that, and it was. Anyway. The work that I did in undergrad, I went to City College in New York, which is in Harlem.

[00:22:55] It's in our public school system out there. It's north of Columbia. There's, it's not a shade to Columbia, but just, you know, we're, we're the public school version of Columbia. We were once known as. Harlem University, right? It was very important to me to go to a school that reflected the diversity that I had in my high school.

[00:23:13] My high school was like 60 something percent Black and of that it was majority Caribbean. So I was like, okay, yeah, I gotta go to the city. I can't stay up here in suburbia land. I was like, nah. Right, right. Respectfully, no. I'm not trying to yuck anybody's yum, but young me was like, Nope, go down, go down to the city.

[00:23:36] So storytelling and being believed in and supporting the work of survivors really came to a head at City College because I was a part of a group called the Sister Circle Collective, which did exactly what it sounds like. We circled and we really took some of the teachings from the course that one half of Brujas of Brooklyn on social media Dr. Griselda Rodriguez-Solomon instilled in us. 

[00:24:03] And we really were just kind of like, all right, like, we want this to live outside of the classroom. We are radicalized enough at the time anyway, because we were very young. To know that that conversation shouldn't just live inside the classroom because not only was that class always on a wait list.

[00:24:20] Like we were privileged enough to be able to go to school. So we had a sense to be like, all right, well, what if we just, you know, and I don't say just to diminish, but I mean that to say, what if we circle, what if we hold space, what if we make sacred containers, right. Which at the time, for our age group, it's not that there weren't other people doing it, but there weren't as many folks doing it in our age bracket at the time of like 21, 22, or like somewhere around there.

[00:24:53] So we did a lot of work around, you know, getting a gender resource center or advocating for one on the campus, really, because there was such a need there were a lot of people who needed to be believed in, or better resourced and better serviced. And they weren't getting the services that they needed. 

[00:25:12] And then we got politicized right around the time, and I say that to say that, There's different flashpoints for a lot of folks, there's different, so what I started to say was, it's similar to the flashpoint of 2020 when George Floyd and Breonna Taylor were killed, we had our own moment like that here in New York City when Eric Garner was killed. 

[00:25:36] And a lot of us were organizing and doing work on our campuses and then sowing seeds to say, Oh, but wait, like we're organizing and we're rallying and it's not to dismiss the loss of life, but it's to say, but if that's happening to men, it can't only be happening to men.

[00:25:59] It has to be happening to the full spectrum of gender and identity and the intersection. Within blackness. So we, we were able to organize a contingent and like famously linked up with Kimberlé Williams Crenshaw. And that was like the, the moment when "say her name" became a thing. Right. So we were in this, this space of in between this of like.

[00:26:29] Okay, this is important work. We know that this is important work. People are telling us how important it is for them to be heard. Right. And then some of our counterparts in like different movement spaces were like, Oh, they just sit around and, you know. Light candles and talk shit, like that's all they do.

[00:26:44] We're just kind of looking around like, huh, what? And then you want us to, you know, organize and you want us to do all the, you know, the invisible labor that makes you an organizer. So what are you really organizing? 

[00:26:58] Josie: Right, right. Yeah, totally. 

[00:27:00] Veronica: So it's very much like, what are you even organizing? But anyway, I say all that to say That work has since ended. It ended in 2017, but I'm saying that here in 2023 about to go into 2024 where I'm so grateful to live in a time where Healing Justice Lineage is the book is out because it affirms a feeling that we had back then of like, no, this is important work. This is necessary work. 

[00:27:27] We just didn't know where we were on that timeline yet. Right. Now, looking back, we're like, oh, we were, you know, we were, it's not that we were ahead of the game, but we were definitely in a lane. That, you know, Hadn't necessarily taken off yet or other folks were doing it, but we didn't know and we weren't in community, right? 

[00:27:49] So I say that to say it's not like we were the only ones and Veronica's out here talking about that They were the only ones doing the work No, that's not what I'm saying. Right, right. But sometimes healing work and organizing work, you can feel isolated. You can feel even in a city like New York, you can feel isolated because, you know, sometimes it gets a little cliquey. 

[00:28:08] And like, who knows who, and like, who has these resources and who's connected to this person as opposed to the type of connector that I aspire to be and hope that I am where I say, okay, word, you want me to do this? Actually, I'm not a good fit for that, but I know who it is. Here's this person's information. Tell them I sent you, you know, like developing ecosystems of folks that it's like, okay, I know an herbalist, I know a doula. 

[00:28:38] My friends, when they are expecting my first question is, What kind of doula do you want? Right? Because I try not to assume anything about how they feel about it. Like, what kind of doula do you want? Do you want a doula to help you bring the kiddo Earthside? Or do you want a different kind of doula?

[00:29:03] Right. Just listening from that perspective, but definitely I'm a big connector in that regard. I'm like, whenever I do have a kid, I'm, I'm going to go through the rolodex and be like so hello, hi. It's, it's time. But that's the kind of, that's the connect, the kind of connector that I aspire to be. But a lot of that comes from some of the work that we did back then.

[00:29:28] Some of the relationships that I still have, like some of the, the work behind the scenes, like before, back when Instagram was just a photo app. Yeah. Remember that? Right? So it's just like, what? I'm like, yeah. So when y'all hear this and you're like, Instagram was just a photo app? I'm like, yeah, we used to take highly saturated photos of like whatever we were eating and like, you know, airplane window seats and whatever, like that was the vibe, okay? 

[00:29:57] Now it's a whole other thing. Yeah. A whole other a whole other way of being community with each other. 

[00:30:03] Josie: Mm hmm. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. 

[00:30:07] So you, a lot of the work you do is around connecting with our ancestors. This is how I found you a while, a long time ago. I've been following your work for a while and I started doing some ancestor work and came across you on Instagram and I just. Everything you posted was so powerful and spoke so deeply to me and I learned so much. And so I really want to talk about that today.

[00:30:32] So, and especially in the context of creating the next generation, you know, and kind of where we. And especially as queer folks, especially as BIPGM, where we find ourselves in that relationship, you know, as you've described it as a bridge, you know, between like the ancestors and our descendants. So maybe let's start at the beginning of like, why Is it important to create relationships with our ancestors?

[00:30:59] And the two questions that always come up to me around this is what if we don't know our ancestors? And what if we're queer and we don't know if our ancestors would support our queerness? Yeah. Anything to say around those questions? 

[00:31:16] Veronica: Yeah. Thank you so much for that affirmation. Speaking of Instagram, right. I feel like the, the good news is, is that. One, that I made the Instagram when I did, but two, that it's grown in a lot of ways and it's wild and whimsical because it's practically doubled in the sense of size on Instagram. Only because I changed the aesthetic of what I posted. That's literally the only thing.

[00:31:42] I'm self guided and taught around like designs and graphics and websites. Anything that you see on the Ancestors in Training page, unless I tag somebody and say they did it. It was me. Yeah. Thank you. It was me hanging out in Canva for a very long time. Nice. Canva and SquareSpace, like that's been going back to a little bit to talking about the work that I did in undergrad.

[00:32:10] That's always been my role, like the, the media person, the archivist, the, okay, did we have a photographer? Okay, no, I'm going to take the photo. Like that's always kind of been my jam. So it comes out in my projects. We got here because, because of forces beyond our control, but we really got here because my paternal grandmother. 

[00:32:32] My namesake grandmother, Helen Veronica Agard, she passed away in 2012, top of 2012, and she had onset Alzheimer's and dementia and folks that have been subscribed, tuned in to my work for a little bit. Y'all already know this story, but when she passed, there were a lot of questions that I, at 21, had of her regarding our lineage, regarding where we came from, but I couldn't ask her. Because I didn't know which. Which version of her I was going to get. She always, she always remembered me to her credit.

[00:33:09] She always remembered me, but sometimes she would make me like older than I was. But she always remembered me. Yeah. And then a bunch of things fell out the family closet as they tend to do when somebody passes away. And I realized that I had a lot more family on that side than I had been raised to believe.

[00:33:30] And there was a whole bunch of intergenerational trauma and things that predate me. And it's, again, it's not to say anything about that other than that. Especially because folks were doing the best that they could with the resources that they had, especially we're talking about still underneath the British Empire, Caribbean folks and what resources they did or did not have in like the thirties and forties.

[00:33:57] Right. And even earlier than that. So that is when I started to get into or think about or wonder about spirituality. And it matched with this inkling that I already had as being the family archivist. Right. Or the family, the fake family genealogist, right? I've had an ancestry.com and this is not a, this is not a sponsored post, but I've had, I've had an ancestry.com account since before they did the DNA, right? 

[00:34:31] Like just to use the family tree function, I've been that person. So then in my, in my journey to figuring out like, okay, what works, what doesn't. A lot of it. And I wish that this was talked about more. A lot of spirituality is like trying different things and trying and seeing like, okay, does this resonate?

[00:34:53] Does this not? And like having that kind of discernment to be like, Oh. Like, I don't feel like how I'm supposed to feel, or like even with getting readings from certain folks, like, not every reader is a match for you, right? And that that's okay. That doesn't mean that they're not gifted at what they do, it's just, it just might not work.

[00:35:13] So very much like and Sister Circle Collective time lines definitely helped with that cultivation. And then the writer in me at that time was trying to figure out how I wanted just me, Veronica. How I wanted to show up and how I wanted to facilitate, not just Veronica, who's a part of Sister Circle, but me. And then around that time started to gain a couple more ancestors.

[00:35:44] Really, like at that point I had done the DNA test and it was very much like, okay, but what about, you know, the chance that, how can I say this? Especially being descended from the United States South, there is a big mythology out there around having a Native American lineage. And doing the DNA test and be like, I don't want to call my ancestors a liar.

[00:36:11] Because it might've been easier for them to claim the Indigeneity over acknowledging how that whiteness got in there. Sure. Right? Yeah. So like some of these things came up and I was like, all right, this is coming up for me. So I know that this is going to come up for other folks. Doesn't matter what their racial background is.

[00:36:30] So that's a part of how we got here. Started circling almost, we're almost at a year. What is it? We're almost seven years to the day. December 1st. I want to say it was December 1st. Yeah, December 1st, 2017. It's technically six calendar years, but it'll be seven cycles of us doing this work.

[00:36:51] My friend and collaborator, Shaira Chaer. Had a conference called the Diasporadicalx. And they trusted me enough to be like, Hey, I want to try out this thing. I'm going to call it Ancestors in Training. And they were like, Yeah, sure. Come. You only have 30 minutes though. And I was like, 30 minutes.

[00:37:08] So like that was the first, the first workshop I ever did around that topic. And thank God it was recorded. Cause then sometimes people are like. Well, how come those like, nah, bro, I have the receipts. Bro is gender neutral for me. But it's like, nah, I have the, I've, I've got my receipts, you know, like every now and again, I have to bring the receipts out because as the Instagram community grows, and I don't assume that folks have been following me for a while. 

[00:37:38] I'm like, in case y'all just stumbled in here, welcome. Right. We've been talking about this for a while. Right. And then speaking of, we've been talking about this for a while, almost every time I circle, but especially when I circle around intergenerational compassion.

[00:37:55] That's usually where this question comes up about what if my ancestors wouldn't accept me for who I am. Right. specifically within the queer community and I think And this is my attempt at an answer. This is not always a complete answer. This answer changes slightly every time I answer it.

[00:38:15] But there were definitely queer ancestors in our lineage, but they just, for a combination of a lot of things, could not be open about it. Because there was a lack of safety there. Yep. Two, depending on the tradition, there were a lot of different queer... Or nonconforming spirits. I'm thinking of, specifically within my lineage, I'm thinking about Olokun, who is the part of the ocean that we can't see.

[00:38:48] Not to be confused with Yemaya, who is the part that we, you know, we tend to go, you know, frolicking. Olokun. can be described either way, or like somewhere in between, lack thereof, that language is changing, I think, in part to conversations like these. I also did a talk years ago, curated a panel on queering divinity. Which featured folks in the tradition who are queer and were like, okay, so what does this even mean?

[00:39:19] Like, how can we have this conversation? Because depending on your lineage within the Orisha based practices or the African traditional or African diasporic traditions. Some of those spaces are safe and some of those spaces are not. Or, some of those spaces you can be brave. Some of those spaces you can't be.

[00:39:39] Yeah. So like that conversation, which it's still up and I'll include that as a resource for this talk specifically that came up then around like, Not just wondering about our ancestors accepting us, but like people that we're in spiritual community with like, like, yes, our ancestors, but what about people in real time here on earth that I can look at in the face of what do they, do they accept me, do they not?

[00:40:06] And the answer to that is so complex and so situational, but my invitation to folks is to, if they don't know. That they become that one, right? So we're thinking about forward and back, right? So we're thinking about doing the work for those that have already passed on or already ancestors, but as ancestors in training, thinking about those that are here or those that are already on their way.

[00:40:33] So my invitation to folks is if you don't know, or you don't have any, then be that one. Yes. I love that. And then especially if you don't know all of your ancestors, this comes up with folks who. Have complicated family histories or may have been adopted, then to think about it from a perspective of inviting the ancestors that would have had love for you, would have compassion for you, that are, that were honorable, that lived honorable lives when they were still here, right?

[00:41:05] Even if you don't know them, trusting that they know you. Right. And, you know, that's a big practice of surrender. That's not a. That's why I say this is a start of an answer. Because for folks that want tangible things, I'm like the most tangible thing I can give you is that talk that we did back in 2018.

[00:41:23] Ki ki ki ki ki, because that's so deeply personal and deeply intimate. Within my circles, I try to, you know, start people on their journey of being an Ancestor in training. I don't, you know, bop people, you know, and dub them, or give them this, you know, certificate or whatever. I'm like, nah, you're already this.

[00:41:48] You're already, okay. If you can relate to the fact that you, you know, our time here is not. You know, long. We want it to be long, we wish long life prosperity for everybody, but in the scheme of the world. In the scheme of the world, we're not going to live forever. So since our time here is finite, like, what are we going to do with our time?

[00:42:10] And if you can get down with that, then we can talk about anything else, we can hold space for anything else. And also a lot of my work is listening. So when I hear that come up, I'm like, okay, I need to hold another container that's for this. Right. Or like, we just did one around tending to grief and healing because of everything that's happening in the world. 

[00:42:34] And being like, yeah, there's a lot of this time of year is sensitive for folks anyway, but it's like, it's a lot like times 10, like how can, how can I show up? In this moment. And I think that that's my, when folks think about their role in the revolution, I'm like, that's mine. Like to be the connector or to be the healer archetype and say like, okay, I made this space for you to land, for you to recharge, go rally forth and go back to whatever you were doing, how you were showing up in the world.

[00:43:05] But yeah, that's my, my long winded answer around, you know, but what about What about an acceptance from all of my ancestors? Right. But yeah, I say all that to say it's very, my responsibility as the steward of Ancestors in Training is to, like I said, if not me, then who? I'm like, this person speaks about this more often than I do.

[00:43:30] This person has this resource of like, whatever this is, right? So another thing that comes up is. Like, but what about white folks? I'm like, this ain't about y'all, but it is because as my, as my godfather says unless you're an alien, everybody has ancestors because we all have a belly button. Right.

[00:43:48] So that means that like white folks, y'all have ancestral traditions. It's just that, you know, in the, the process, in the creation of whiteness, you erased it from each other. Totally. You did that to each other first and the, the closing of the commons, the witch trials, the inquisition, all of that, right?

[00:44:08] what happened to the Celts, it's like y'all did that to yourselves and then said, oh, we already know how to handle Right. Or deal with Indigenous people everywhere else because y'all, y'all already knew what to do. Right. So I'm saying not to say that when folks are like, but what about white people?

[00:44:25] What do you think about them? And, you know, I'm like, they have ancestors too. They definitely have more work to do though, in terms of ancestral healing than I may do as a Black person. It may look different. It may be a lot more complicated. It may not. I don't know. It depends. But I say that to say when folks are like, well, who is your work for?

[00:44:45] I'm like, it's for everybody technically, because every, again, since we confirmed that aliens are real, unless you're an alien, it's for everyone, but just know that it's centering the global majority. Yes. Right? Yeah. And centering folks who traditionally are not centered. 

[00:45:03] Josie: Yeah. Yeah, totally. That makes sense. I love that everyone who has a belly button has an ancestor, has ancestors. 

[00:45:11] So I would love to talk about kind of what, from your point of view, Is our responsibility to shape a better present, a better future on a fertility journey as we, as folks embark on a fertility journey, you know, as our role as ancestors in training and kind of bringing in this, our descendants, the next generation of ancestors.

[00:45:34] I would love to talk about that. Our role is that bridge, like what, what the importance of that is. 

[00:45:41] Veronica: Yeah. So if this is gendered, so I'm going to try and translate the science that's limiting to being more affirming. So anyone who can carry a child, like we are. The parts of us that make us, us, were in our grandmother, in this case, we were, or at least some of the parts of us that would become us.

[00:46:11] In the flesh, started in. One of our grandparents. Right. Right. So I like to think about it from that perspective, especially any time that my mom was like, yeah, you and your grandmother cut of the same cloth. Cause y'all be like, we talk pretty fast. Right. But then even in the sense of you know, the process and start to finish of birthing.

[00:46:39] That's such a sacred thing. That's such a tender space. It's probably why I have a lot of respect for doulas and midwives of all kinds because I'm not a parent but I'm, I'm definitely an auntie to like a couple of kiddos. Yeah. In community and I'm just like, that's like, what? Like just in the sense of like, just the bewilderment that I have at times.

[00:47:03] Yeah. And I think that having that kind of, that sense and that understanding, which I definitely get it why there's a lot of folks who are like you, like, that are doing that kind of work with birthing folks and fertility and, you know, birth work overall, right? Because it makes sense. Like that's the, it's not that that's the easiest audience, but it's like birth workers are like, yeah, because we catch the next generation.

[00:47:34] Absolutely, we are ancestors in training. Got it. Right. So I say that to say, I think that so much of that work is really being in like in reverence and awe and like supporting folks As they, you know, decide to become parents, because another thing that's happening in real time is, and this is something that I say often, with Ancestors in Training in general, it's, it's partially rooted in the Indigenous to Turtle Island tradition and medicine of doing the work for the next seven generations.

[00:48:14] Right. And then I extend that to thinking about not only the ones that are the seventh generation forward, but also thinking about the next three, the next two or three, because of climate change. And the climate crisis that we're in, right? Not just change, like it's changing. Like it's happening. Yeah. Right.

[00:48:36] And the intersection there of climate justice and birthing justice, I'm like, yeah, naturally that makes sense because I'll have conversations with my friends. And it's like, okay, so these United States, it, that ain't the move long term. Like, where are we going? Right? So in the key of like, you know, expat shenanigans, like, where are we going?

[00:48:57] Right. And then looking around on a map, like, oh, can't go to this ancestral land because it'll be underwater. Oh, we can't go over here because it'll be too hot. Oh, we can't go over here because of whatever. And that is a conversation. That I've been having with myself and I'm, if my parents catch this, this is not a pregnancy announcement, but it's like, there's a couple of things I would have to do for that to happen.

[00:49:23] That hasn't happened, but in a world where I'm fortunate enough to have a kid, that is something that I actively think about. I'm like, okay, where, okay, where are my parents? And then where am I? Okay, I don't know who that partner is yet, though, so heh heh. Like, just, just thinking about it from that perspective, and I, you know, I have a whimsical take on it.

[00:49:45] But for some folks it's a deeply, and everyone's facility journey is different. Some folks have more challenges. Like, I myself am a rainbow baby, which means that my mom had a miscarriage before me. Right. I'm thinking about it from that perspective of like, it's not, we're not here by accident, like from a literal perspective, from a spiritual perspective, we were prayed for, prayed over carried into and in my tradition, we on the other side chose to be here. 

[00:50:18] Chose to come back made a contract with creation that said, okay, I'm a do this work and I'm gonna do whatever it is that I came here to do and then when we get here to this side we forget. 

[00:50:29] So part of our journey on this side is to remember why we chose to come back. And I think that that ties into this question because We can, anyone really, but especially folks who are choosing to become parents can walk with that kind of knowledge of like, okay, like what kind of world am I bringing this person into?

[00:50:58] What do I want them to know about where they come from? Is there, are there any cycles that I want to start? That's one of my favorite things to talk about because, rightfully so, there's a lot of work to do and cycles to break. But I am also team, what cycles are you going to start? Because in general, my general philosophy is, it's not enough to talk about what we're not gonna do.

[00:51:23] Right? Because I don't, I also don't like double negatives. So I'm like, I'm like, can we, I'm like, yes, but also flip side, like, yes, and can we talk about what we're going to do instead? Yes, and, oh, so going back to a question that we had before my descendants, this maybe something that somebody says, my descendants will know that like, I as a queer person, I as a gender non-conforming person, I as a, lived my truth.

[00:51:55] So that way my descendants who come after me can live their truths. Right. Right. Like, these are some of the things that can go into fertility process or even in prayers or just things that we write down. It could also go into the choices that people make when choosing a doula. When choosing a midwife.

[00:52:12] Yeah. And, you know, and making that kind of birthing plan and like trying to find. Folks who believe in similar things, right? So that way that child comes earthside and is already, you know, already in that container and it can be a braver, safer space for them for to, as they grow to. Express themselves in any kind of way.

[00:52:36] Josie: Totally. Oh, I love, love, love that. What cycles are we going to start? Yeah, I love that. Excellent. So I see that we only have about a few more minutes. I want to jump to the end of this. I know it goes so fast. I feel like I need to start having like double podcasting, like where we have like two episodes per guest.

[00:52:57] Veronica: And I talk a lot. So I talk a lot and Luke who ran the Bushwick podcast said this once and I was like, Oh, this is the perfect way to describe me. He said that I am whimsical and winding in one moment and then said I'm super tactical in the next. And I was like, that is a quote. I am using that for the rest of my life.

[00:53:20] That is exactly, I'll be like, doo doo doo, and then be like, boom, I didn't forget your question. Nailed it. So we could definitely do a part two because I know that there were a lot of questions. 

[00:53:31] Josie: Yeah, I would love to do a part two if you want. Would you like to come back for a part two? 

[00:53:36] Veronica: Yeah, we can do a part two for sure so we don't feel like we have to rush or potentially cheapen the conversation.

[00:53:44] Josie: Yeah, okay. Awesome. Yay. Perfect. Okay. So I'll jump to the end and then we'll, we'll get you back here for a part two. 

[00:53:52] So how can people find you and support you and buy all your things? 

[00:53:58] Veronica: Yeah, so the easiest way, if you really like Ancestors in Training as a concept, as a vibe, as a thing, you can go to ancestorsintraining.org. You will find all the things, including our shop. We have merch now. Yes. I'm not wearing it because I'm a bad promoter, but we have a lot of different things. We've got stuff for kids now, adults, we've got notebooks, right, because since we invite people to write all the time, I was like, we should make a notebook.

[00:54:28] Try to make intentional, you know, but also swaggy things for people to wear. When we have workshops and things, it'll be on the take action page of our website. A lot of folks are over on socials at Ancestors in Training on Insta, but we also have a newsletter. And I tend to tell the newsletter things first before I post it on social media, so you might want to get over there.

[00:54:51] Nice. And then if you want to see anything that I myself am doing. Poems, Lovergirl antics, if you will, traveling, all those, you know. All those kind of things. You can find me @verosgotthejuice on IG. Oh, I can say this here. This is a, you heard it here first. We are launching a deck. I love technology, but I also believe in being able to Create things like whether it's the merch or like this deck that people can physically hold. And carry with them and, you know.

[00:55:29] Josie: Oh, I can't wait, yay. That's so exciting. Well, thank you so much for coming today and having this conversation. I can't wait to continue talking with you. 

[00:55:39] Veronica: Yeah, because there's a whole section of questions that we had skipped. 

[00:55:44] Josie: I know. We'll come back to it. We will.

[00:55:47] Veronica: Or skipped for now. 

[00:55:48] Josie: Yeah, skipped for now, exactly. 

[00:55:51] Veronica: Yeah, no, this was a really wonderful way To start my day, kind of, because I tend to be an afternoon girl, but yeah. 

[00:55:58] Josie: Aw, thanks so much.

[00:56:03] Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility Podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz. If you like the show and wanna hear more, tap subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and please leave us a review, it really truly helps. 

[00:56:29] The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and produced by Rozarie Productions with original music by Jen Korte.

All content offered through The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is created for informational purposes only, it is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.