Episode 17 - Sean Saifa Wall: “The Basis of the Intersex Movement is Storytelling.”

Sean Saifa Wall (he/him/his) is a Black queer intersex activist and rising scholar. In this episode, he talks about how growing up intersex informed his activism, the importance of patient advocacy and medical reparations, and the intersection between intersex justice and reproductive rights.

[ID: A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 17: Sean Saifa Wall @saifaemerges @intersexjusticeproject and Josie Rodrigueez-Bouchier @intersectionalfertility.]

This is a rich conversation with a passionate activist that will leave you locating yourself in the conversation of competent, affirming medicine, art as spirituality, and more.

Connect with Sean at @saifaemerges and @intersexjusticeproject on Instagram, and @SeanSaifaWall and @intersexjustice on Twitter.

Get involved with the grassroots initiative by intersex people of color with the Intersex Justice Project.

Learn more about Saifa's intersex justice activism, art and documentary film projects at seansaifa.com.

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.

[00:00:00] Josie: I'm Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility podcast where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our whole selves.

[00:00:24] Sean Saifa Wall is a Black, queer, intersex activist, and rising scholar. He is a Marie Sklodowska-Curie fellow, examining the erasure of intersex people from social policy in Ireland and England. Saifa is committed to racial equity and a radical vision of bodily autonomy for intersex folks. As co-founder of the Intersex Justice Project, a grassroots initiative by intersex people of color.

[00:00:51] He is determined to end harmful genital surgery on intersex children, and advocate for affirming healthcare for all intersex people.

[00:01:07] All right, welcome. Thank you so much for being on the podcast, Saifa.

[00:01:12] Sean: Yo, thank you for the invitation once again. 

[00:01:15] Josie: Yeah, absolutely. So will you share with us your pronouns and where in the world you're joining us from today? 

[00:01:23] Sean: Yeah. So again, my name is Saifa, my pronouns are he, him, and his, and I am joining you from Manchester, England.

[00:01:33] Josie: Wow, what's it like over there right now? 

[00:01:37] Sean: I am staying in my newly built apartment. It probably was built like 20 years ago. But it's, you know, I hate like modern, they build 'em so cheap these days, but so I'm looking out the sort of I have a sliding door patio. So I'm looking out the window. I'm on the fifth floor and it's just, it's overcast. It's fall in England. So, yeah. 

[00:01:59] Josie: I love it. It sounds very romantic. 

[00:02:02] Sean: Whew. I mean, it's good for writing. You know, if I was nesting and hibernating, but you know, days on end when there's no sun can kind of get to you. 

[00:02:12] Josie: Yeah, for sure. That's a good point. So I would love to hear a little bit about your background and your, I just love people's stories and how they came to be, where they are. What is your story about how you came to be an intersex justice activist? 

[00:02:33] Sean: Hmm, wow. That's such a big question for me. Cause I mean, for me it feels like it's different threads that have contributed to my journey as an intersex activist. I always sort of ground my story in just my lineage. Because I think of my Nana, she's passed, but her name was Sarah Robinson.

[00:03:01] And she was a shortie. She stood like 4'10'', maybe 4'11". She was short, but she like literally gave birth to nine children. 10 originally, one was stillborn. And she had three intersex children. in the south during Jim Crow. And so I can only imagine like what that must have been like for her, especially having only had a seventh grade education.

[00:03:29] And she worked as a domestic for most of her life. She was a domestic worker and just very, as one of my uncles described at her eulogy, she was meek and she was humble. So, you know, I think about her as sort of like, from where my story came from because she gave birth to my mother who gave birth to me.

[00:03:53] I think part of what binds all of us is this DNA. This DNA that, you know, when I had met with a geneticist last year, he said that this particular variation is passed through the women on my mom's side of the family. So like she had it, my Nana had it, but they didn't have XY chromosomes.

[00:04:19] So that's why they gave birth to children who some, if they had a XY chromosome, this genetic variants would be activated. And so, I feel like so much of who I am is based on my lineage, but also just having this family. Having this family of people who have this same variation originally, there were eight of us.

[00:04:46] Six of us are now living and in this family unit with over a hundred people, like. No one talked about it. So literally, it was only talked about in whispers. So my awareness of being intersex was, it was in this unit, which is weird in this family unit, but also very solitary.

[00:05:13] And so I think for me, you know, I just grew up as a regular kid. I always felt like I was a boy ever since I was younger, but my mom was like, "you're a girl." There weren't any models for me out in the world to see, right. Now young people can be like, I'm a boy! I'm a girl! I'm non-binary! They're options for the kids, which is great.

[00:05:40] But I think for me, it was just. I felt this way and I didn't have any models or reflections to look towards. So when my mom was like, "you're a girl," I was like, okay. I guess this is my lot in life, you know? But I think I started developing as male. Yeah, I had an early puberty, started developing as male.

[00:06:00] My voice dropped when I was maybe 11. And I didn't understand what was happening to my body, but I was okay with the changes. 

[00:06:10] Josie: Mm, interesting. 

[00:06:11] Sean: Yeah, because I think often there's a lot of hysteria that doctors sort of create. Doctors and surgeons, that children won't understand their bodies. That they'll get bullied. And it's not to say that some intersex young people don't have those experiences, but I think with the proper supports, people can really understand that their body is unique and it's different and it's okay. As my body was changing I didn't understand, but I got those messages that my body was not okay.

[00:06:47] With my particular variation, it's called androgen insensitivity syndrome. So I had unascended testes. I had more male looking genitalia and because my testes were not descended, they caused me a lot of pain and essentially the endocrinologist at the time he was like, "okay, these gonads" that he referred to them as, he was like, "they have to be removed."

[00:07:13] And I was put on estrogen and progesterone which are feminizing hormones, which feminized my face and body. And I think it caused like this for me, body dysphoria. To have this body that I actually was accustomed to, to change so radically. To go from being hairy, to not hairy, to go from being solid and lean, to being like fleshy and soft.

[00:07:43] Having fat in places that didn't feel good to me. It was really just a shock to my system. But I think for me, I just conformed, I went along because I wanted to fit in and when I was in college, I actually looked up what was known as testicular feminization syndrome at the time.

[00:08:04] It was changed to AIS, and I looked up the characteristics and I was angry. I was angry and I felt alone because I felt betrayed. And not so much by my mom, cause I felt like she did what she could with the resources she had, but definitely the doctors who I was in their care, they lied to me.

[00:08:24] That was one of the starting points of my anger. Another starting point of my anger was reading As Nature Made Him by John Colapinto. Seeing the psychiatrist who I had seen as a young person, her name is Dr. Anke Ehrhardt and seeing her name in that book and reading how she had developed these protocols around intersex children.

[00:08:53] I was so angry and I was fucking livid. I think that's what really pushed me toward be sharing my story and being more vocal. It was around 2004, and I think it coincided with my giving testimony at the San Francisco Human Rights Commission Hearing on intersex which was in, I think May of 2004, March or May of 2004.

[00:09:19] And from then on I've been public. In most recent years it's taken the form of direct action. But throughout has been really to share my story with the hopes that anyone who listens can maybe question their own bodies. Maybe parents who are listening can actually maybe choose a different path for their kids.

[00:09:47] Yeah, I think the basis of our movement, of the intersex movement is storytelling. So, thank you so much for the invitation to be in that storytelling. 

[00:09:59] Josie: I love that. I love hearing people's stories so much. I think it's so powerful. And especially in, this kind of scenario for sure. Thank you for sharing that. And how did visual art come into that piece? I love that other side of you. 

[00:10:17] Sean: Mm, yeah I think for me, to be honest, I haven't made any art since my mom died. And I've been in this, I do wanna get back to making art again. But woo, it has been, it's been tough because I think my mom's death was just such a shock to my system that I haven't been able to make art, but I still buy art when I can. I still appreciate, like I think even if you're not in the active practice of making art, I think just being engaged with it being around it, can still be so helpful. 

[00:11:00] For me, art has always been part of my household. Like my sister, who's older than me, she's 10 years older than me. She's disabled. She has mental health issues, but her art is amazing. And I think that's what inspired me as a young person. And she was such a prolific artist. Like literally she would just draw on walls on scraps of paper, you know? 

[00:11:28] So I grew up with art all around me. And I've always had an appreciation for art. I started making art one day, just sort of like, I don't draw, but I'm a collage artist. It's such a spiritual process of making collage because you're literally taking these different pieces that would never have had contact in their lives and making something different. And I feel like for me, it's spirituality. I think about it as my spirituality in that I'm the medium through which this thing will represent itself.

[00:12:21] So it's like for me, listening to that next right step. But I think also part of my visual art is making, you know, after this PhD program, like finishing the documentary I was working on about my dad. Because I do feel like I don't really talk about it often, but like my spiritual practice is really important for me. It's what grounds me to this Earth. It what grounds me as a somatic awareness practitioner. 

[00:12:51] Yeah, and I don't talk about it very often and publicly. I feel like my spirituality is like the thread through the work that I do, that pays honor and homage to my ancestors, my descendants and to my existence here on Earth and it really informs the work that I do and why I do that.

[00:13:18] Josie: Absolutely. Yeah. That makes so much sense. And that, that would be such a strong thread through being an artist. Yeah, that's awesome. I love that. So I would love to talk about the intersection between intersex justice and reproductive rights since there's so much to talk about there. 

[00:13:42] Since a lot of the folks who are listening are in their conceiving journey, their fertility journey, so this is on their minds. And I know a lot of specifically like queer intersex folks, you know, would be interested in hearing about this as well, but what is that relationship between intersex justice and reproductive rights?

[00:14:05] Sean: Hmm. I mean, I think for me the foundation and the premise of intersex justice is bodily autonomy. But also recognizing the structural oppression and how that really impacts the body and how it violates the body, and how it violates, multiply marginalized bodies. And intersex justice seeks repair, and also a reckoning around the sort of treatment of people who are born with intersex variations.

[00:14:45] The way I think about intersex justice is that it's not only direct action. It's not only protests, it's not only sharing stories, but it's also like, what does it look like when these institutions that are causing harm, when they're brought to accountability around the harm that they've caused?

[00:15:06] And so, I really feel that intersex justice is in conversation with other movements. And that, I think it's dope that you hold up and mention the reproductive rights movement, you know, having lived in Atlanta, like I was really close to folks in the reproductive justice movement.

[00:15:27] Like Black women, Black queer folks, Black non-binary folks, really asserting the inalienable rights of people who reproduce. That they have rights to their body, that they get to live with sovereignty in a world that is attacking them on different levels. 

[00:15:51] I feel that intersex justice is a reproductive justice issue because you know, this affects, it always doubly affects People of Color and particularly like Black people that these institutions that are causing harm will continue to cause harm. Unless we actually fight for our dignity within those institutions.

[00:16:19] And also create spaces outside those institutions to address the harm that has been caused. And so I feel like, it's a radical move. It's a radical lift, you know? Yeah. And so, it reminds me, I've had conversations with someone who I really respect, their name is Yamani Hernandez.

[00:16:51] I believe they're still with the National Network of Abortion Funds, and they talked about reproductive justice and how it relates to intersex justice. And I think what it boils down to is the inalienable rights to be in our bodies, to be loved, and to be supported, and to be held. 

[00:17:12] Josie: Totally, yeah, that makes sense. And reparations. 

[00:17:18] Sean: Woo! And reparations. For sure. 

[00:17:24] Josie: I'm wondering what are some barriers that intersex folks might come up against in a medical setting in particular, I'm thinking about folks who are trying to conceive and have to use medical intervention. What are some things they might come up against? What are some ways they can protect or advocate for themselves? 

[00:17:44] Sean: Hmm, for me, I want to be honest is that my experience is limited because I cannot reproduce. And the only experience I can offer is anecdotal, to people who I've talked to. And so, I think it would be great in future episodes to actually bring on folks who have been on that journey who are on that journey. Because I, yeah, I think. That feels really important for me, for those voices to be lifted up because I think what it says is that, you know, intersex is not defined one way.

[00:18:24] I think we have different experiences around our bodies. We have different experiences around bleeding and reproduction, right. But from what I have heard with folks that the medical setting can be a dehumanizing experience. And I think if people have had interventions on their bodies, it can be a really traumatic experience or a retraumatizing experience.

[00:18:52] And so I feel like it's so important for people to have support when they're entering these spaces, like to have people advocating for them. I would share an experience that's adjacent to that in the sense of like there was when I was living in Atlanta, there was this young, young woman.

[00:19:14] She was late twenties, who had given birth to an intersex young person. A baby, not a young person, a baby, a child! Right. And she wanted to get some tests done on her kid, and she asked me to go with her to the appointment at Children's Healthcare of Atlanta.

[00:19:39] Josie: Nice. Yeah. 

[00:19:40] Sean: I was utterly disgusted by the pediatric endocrinologist who was there, who was very disrespectful, they're very disrespectful, very patronizing toward her and me, as her patient advocate. And, I think it, really felt good to her. I wish there could be patient advocates in a room with so many parents of intersex children as well as intersex patients.

[00:20:07] Right. Because I do think advocates make a huge difference. In having the knowledge, having the experience or having the awareness to ask for someone to be an advocate. Because, you know, I wanna recognize that these systems and that even though we don't necessarily want to think about medical systems as being harmful, but there are spaces where real violence happens.

[00:20:38] And I think that the more advocates we have, the better. I would say is that, if someone has, I really feel that people should have as much knowledge or try to get as much knowledge as they can, as they're navigating these systems.

[00:21:02] Because there's so much misinformation. And I feel like people know about their bodies. Have hunches or inklings about their bodies, and they're dismissed. And I think sometimes that persistence can feel really hard when you feel defeated by this larger system. And you know, there might be issues with insurance.

[00:21:24] But yeah, I just feel like it's definitely a multi-layered issue. And I would want people, and I hope. And I think it will also be curious. Right. To be honest, like I think this is, this would be a good, and I hate research sometimes even though I'm a researcher, but I do feel like People's, intersex folks experiences with healthcare and advocacy for themselves.

[00:21:55] I think it would be interesting to actually hear more of those stories. Cause I think we don't hear those stories enough. 

[00:22:02] Josie: For sure, yeah. I mean, even just the power of having a third person be present when it's you and a doctor. Even if they are just in the room and there's another witness to what is happening. And then you can even debrief afterwards with that person and be like, this is what I heard. Is that what you heard? 

[00:22:25] Just to have that kind of more of a shared experience with someone else that you can talk to. Because I feel like, at least just speaking from my own experience, when it's just you and the doctor, a lot of times, you're like questioning your own reality in a sense. And you miss things and you're like, was that weird? Or was that just me? 

[00:22:49] Sean: Totally, totally. Yeah, and I think one thing I wanted to add is just like, when folks are in these spaces, it's not a teaching moment for doctors and residents. When we look at the definition of intersex, it goes beyond genitals, right?

[00:23:10] Because there are many people who haven't had surgery on their genitals. So, you know, intersex goes beyond genitals, but it encompasses like chromosomes and hormones and reproductive organs. And so when we take that into account, it literally can account for a vast swath of the population.

[00:23:30] And so I feel like, this is not a teaching moment for doctors or residents. And people shouldn't be made to feel abnormal or weird because they may have hormone levels that are different, or genitals that are different, or reproductive organs that are different, or chromosomes that are different.

[00:23:46] And I think often people are made to feel that they're less than, or they're just not given straight answers about their bodies. 

[00:23:54] Josie: Right, and it is so much more common than people think. 

[00:23:58] Sean: Totally. Yeah. I have a homey who for a long time thought they had PCOS and then they've given birth to children and basically the doctors were so disparaging toward them. Was like, oh, well you'll never have kids. And was just like not supportive, not affirming of their bodies and you know, not affirming of their body. And it didn't help that they were also a Person of Color. And that they're queer and that they were married to someone who's non-binary.

[00:24:39] It was really, it was just like all these levels. So yeah, the question is, how do we advocate for ourselves? In these settings that are not meant for us, especially when we are, as People of Color, as Black people, as queer folks, as Trans, GNC folks, right?

[00:25:06] Josie: Yeah, totally. And I'm thinking too, that it's more common than we think. And it's actually probably even more common cause a lot of folks don't know that they are intersex. I've heard this statistic that it's just as common as redheads, is that right?

[00:25:26] Sean: Yeah. Red heads or twins or people with green eyes. 

[00:25:29] Josie: Okay. So, and then maybe it's probably even more common than that. 

[00:25:34] Sean: Totally yeah. Cause it's just so many variations in like our bodies. Right, like human beings are like flowers. How do we actually, I mean, that's a problem with science, right?

[00:25:49] That's a problem with classification is it's like, we wanna put people in these very discrete categories. But human bodies don't work like that, sexuality doesn't work like that, gender doesn't work like that. Yeah, the percentage we have is like 1.7% of the human population, but I don't think that's necessarily, that doesn't account for all the variations that exist out there.

[00:26:15] Josie: Yeah. I'm sure it's higher actually. 

[00:26:17] Sean: Yeah, hell yeah. 

[00:26:20] Josie: And I'm just thinking I wanna back up a little bit and wonder, like, what would reparations look like from the medical setting? 

[00:26:28] Sean: Ooh. I've been in dialogue with a person who I have known from Instagram. They're an artist based in New York city. And they've been posting recently about medical violence and obstetric violence. What intersects activism for me is about really shifting the narrative, because we don't want to believe that the medical establishment is capable of violence. We don't wanna believe that.

[00:27:01] The physicians who see us, the attending physicians, the surgeons, we don't wanna believe that they're sadists, we don't wanna believe that they're perpetrators or predators, right. We don't wanna believe that they have beliefs that are conservative or that are racist or transphobic or homophobic.

[00:27:18] We don't wanna believe that. And I think that's what makes intersex activism really interesting, and sometimes hard for people to grapple because we don't want to believe that the people who we see when we're most vulnerable is capable of harm. And so I think for me, intersex activism and intersex justice rest in this larger sort of framework of looking at violence that happens to, marginal people within the medical establishment. 

[00:27:55] So what would reparations look like? I think it would actually be offering, for intersex people, it would actually be offering free healthcare to people who have had, you know, cuz it's not just one surgery, it's not just a surgery that happens when someone is younger. It's like the effects of the surgeries that stay with people for the rest of their lives. And I think healthcare like subsidized or free healthcare would actually mitigate that harm that has been done because that's actually committing to the holistic life of the individual, right. 

[00:28:36] I think reparations looks like actually holding accountable to people who have caused harm. And I think that gets really tricky because the carceral system is so violent to everyone. It's violent to the people who hold the keys and it's extremely violent to the people who are within those walls.

[00:28:57] But what does it look like to hold these practitioners accountable who have harmed people, and who are adamant about their harm? I think a larger conversation about reparations from the medical establishment is monetary, financial settlement. But I think also just really sort of linking all of these different communities that have been harmed. 

[00:29:31] Because I think so much of this harm continues in isolation. People have had some really brutal horrific experiences and they're left on their own. So what does it look like to actually create, you know, I'm very jaded about these truth and reconciliation commissions, cause I think they're like totally bureaucratic and full of shit.

[00:30:01] But it's just like, what does it look like? Honestly, when people are able to actually meet other people who have been harmed and to create dialogue around really restructuring a medical system that actually serves all right. Cause the fact that we are paying for medical care is violent in and of itself that people literally have to worry.

[00:30:26] People's first contact, with the medical providers in an emergency room, right? That people literally go without health insurance because they can't, because they have to decide whether they want to eat, buy clothes for their kids, or cover their basic necessities, as opposed to having health insurance.

[00:30:48] I think it's so violent that people are dehumanized by the same system that's supposed to help and lift them up. It, it is really. It is really astounding to me. It is. 

[00:31:01] Josie: And no wonder they're trying to keep everyone isolated. Right. Cause then there's no power there.

[00:31:06] Sean: Right, right! Exactly.

[00:31:08] Josie: Yeah, ugh. I'm also wondering if someone found out that they were going to have an intersex baby, what steps should they take, or could they take, to protect that child? At any point along that childhood journey? 

[00:31:30] Sean: Ooh, yeah. I feel like for me, having spoken to a lot of people who were expecting. Spoken to people who have intersex kids. You know, I think first and foremost, no gender reveal parties. None. No genital reveal. Please stop. That's to go. So I think that being the first thing. But, you know, I feel the parents who I've spoken to have some people didn't wanna know. Some people were like I'm having a baby and are like, don't you wanna know if it's a boy or girl?

[00:32:16] Don't you wanna know, don't you wanna know? And they're just like, it's not important to me. Like I just really wanna have a child that I love and care about for, for sure. Cause I think if we start, there are ways that we can start shifting this gender narrative. By just being open to a baby. 

[00:32:34] Because I think it sets up so much expectations when we know that it's a boy or girl, what do we do? Start buying blue, start buying pink, and really starting that socialization even before the child is born. And with parents I've spoken to who have had intersex kids one, you know, it's a pressure cooker for parents.

[00:33:01] It's a real pressure cooker. And even the most educated parents have been disrespected, and have been questioned by the medical authority about the decisions that they choose not to make for their kids. I.E. Surgery. So I think more than just telling parents to stand strong in their decisions.

[00:33:23] I think for me, what I would offer to parents, is just like I know it can be terrifying, especially there's a feeling. Sometimes parents just feel so alone and I think if they aren't being seen by a social worker or a psychologist who is intersex affirming, many times parents are actually seeing surgeons first.

[00:33:49] They're seeking it out. Well, I think often whenever there's a child born, who's intersex the first person that parents see are often surgeons. And so surgeons are, their job is to cut shit. And so they're just like, oh, here's a problem, here's a pathology. I can make your kid normal.

[00:34:11] Don't worry mom and dad, or don't worry, parents, like, you know, you are fine. And it's just like, So, you know, I think more than just saying that people should love their intersex kids. I think people should really pause, slow down the process and really try as much as they can to educate themselves. And really allow themselves to grieve that they did not have a quote normal child, even though intersex is normal to me.

[00:34:49] Because intersex is a natural part of human variation in our society. The way we look at intersex variations is abnormal. It's presented as abnormal, atypical, so I think there is something to be said about really allowing themselves to grieve, to grieve the child that they wanted. And to embrace the child that they have. And I think parents can be their child's biggest advocate. I think the decision to move, to not embrace surgery can really, it can be lonely.

[00:35:29] There's so much pressure on parents to do that. But for parents of younger children, I think really sitting with their own internalized homophobia, transphobia, their notions of what the gender binary is, because I think as long as they are adhering to this binary, it's really going to drive them up a wall it's really gonna make 'em nutty.

[00:35:59] There are resources out there, to talk to other parents or reach out to intersex folks who are creating content to look on YouTube because our stories are there. And I know parents have reached out to me and other folks, so we are within reach. But I think it is not an easy journey. It can be a difficult journey. 

[00:36:23] And sometimes because parents are overwhelmed, parents are anxious because of societal and cultural beliefs. I think sometimes parents choose to take an easier route, which is surgery and not talking about it. But from what I, from the parents that I've spoken to, everyone lives with some degree of guilt whether you choose surgery or not.

[00:36:51] So I think there's a reckoning that needs to happen. I think the baseline is really, I do feel, I believe this is that children choose their parents spiritually. And I think it's definitely an exercise in growth and really believing that their kid is normal, when society is saying that your kid is not normal. And being willing to accept that biological sex is fluid, that gender changes if need be. 

[00:37:34] I feel like having an intersex child is a blessing to the people who bear intersex children. And I think it really, if accepted will really allow them to stretch and get to nurture a child, that's very unique, very special, but that will actually challenged so much of what they have learned. Because I think in order to raise an intersex child with love, there's so much unlearning that has to happen because the kid is just in the world just trying to be themselves. Just trying to live, just trying to play.

[00:38:17] Josie: Right, yeah. And what a gift that is. Totally. This leads right into my next question, which is what does the future of intersex justice look like to you? 

[00:38:29] Sean: I wanna work myself out of a job. Like I literally want to live in a world and I see that. I definitely see that. I see how so much has changed in my lifetime. How there are more people who are asking questions who are interrogating who they are, who are getting medical tests, if they can afford it. If they have health insurance who are saying out loud that I'm intersex. Who are living with less shame and stigma and silence around their bodies.

[00:39:12] So I am waiting for that tipping point. When, there'll be intersex people who will be loud and proud. Who will be like, "this is who I am," without apology. And not everyone who is intersex needs to be an activist. I think just by virtue of living and breathing, is activism. And so, I want to see, cause I know we're out there and we're in different places in government, we're in fashion, we're in politics. We're in so many parts of life. And I want to see a world where people are living without fear and without shame. 

[00:40:01] Because there's nothing shameful about our bodies. This is all a narrative that was not created by us, right? So why should we adhere to it? So, yeah, I think for me, intersex justice is the structural shift, right? It's actually less hospitals doing these surgeries. It's parents making informed decisions around the future of their child.

[00:40:29] Not the present moment, the future of their child. Where parents are adamant about like, "my child is okay, I don't need to do these surgeries. I'm only gonna commit surgeries if my child cannot pee or defecate." Intersex justice for me is like really, you know, committing to a world where gender doesn't exist. 

[00:40:55] Because the gender binary actually oppresses everyone. It oppresses intersex people, trans people, and cisgender folks. Everyone suffers. No one is having a good time out here. No one is having a good time, you know? 

[00:41:15] I know that day is coming and I may not live to see it, but I know that day is going to be here when just who we are and the uniqueness and the beauty of our bodies will be upheld and affirmed. And there will just be such a thunderous roar of just pride. We'll look back on this moment and be like, I don't know how we could have allowed medical providers to pathologize us, or to harm us, for the sake of holding up this arbitrary system of gender classification. That people will just be like, "oh nah, we're good." 

[00:42:03] Josie: Yes, I think that day is coming too. Yeah, that's awesome. So the last question is something I ask all my guests, something I talk about a lot is bringing your whole self to the fertility journey. So I always ask folks if they have any personal practices or rituals in place that allow you to connect with your whole self or your essence. And I just think that's so important for us to have those practices in place. 

[00:42:30] Sean: Ooh. Yeah. I don't know where this will go in the podcast, but I feel like before answering your question, I think about for intersex people out there who are giving birth, I would just say, please get curious about your body. Because I think there are many ways to have birth and I think it's just a really radical knowing and just defiance of medical providers or changing the narrative. 

[00:43:05] Because I think medical providers will reduce us to just our genitals or reduce us to just reproductive organs and, I just want people out there, who are intersex, and who are thinking about conceiving or having children just to be really empowered with whatever resources they have, especially in a medical setting that is violent and that will seek to dehumanize them.

[00:43:36] And so I feel like for me, back in 2011, I started doing courses with this organization called generative somatics. It's based in Oakland, California. I don't know if it's still around, I think it is. I think that was the first, especially I had started recovery 12 step recovery in 2007.

[00:44:02] And I was doing talk therapy. But I think there was something about somatic awareness and somatic therapy that really did something for me to really connect with my body and really discover the aliveness, and discover the places where I wasn't alive, right? The places where I had to numb, the places where I had to disassociate, the places where I couldn't feel, those places that had to stay tucked inside of me in order to stay safe, you know?

[00:44:32] And so for me, somatic awareness is, I'm a practitioner, so I work with people have worked with people. And I think it's been life giving and life affirming. Because every time I do sessions with people, I get to reclaim a part of myself that was maybe on a very minuscule level obliterated, right.

[00:45:01] Or erased, or overlooked, or ignored. And I think that's what brings me back around to the conversation about visual art. I look at healing from trauma as like a collage, right? Because, I think what trauma does is that it breaks down, it harms, it divides. And we never, it's almost like having a puzzle that's put together and you throw it. And I think the collage is those pieces, you may not be able to find those pieces, but when you put it back together, you actually get to create something different. 

[00:45:45] Something that is unique. Something that is beautiful, something that is maybe just radically different or something, that's just pushing the edge of art. But I feel like for me, healing from trauma is creating a collage. Those pieces that I'm gathering, they may not fit together like they used to, but I get to create something different.

[00:46:10] And maybe even more beautiful. More beautiful. So yeah, I feel like, my spirituality and the somatic awareness. And doing that work with myself and others. I feel like it's been really restorative. 

[00:46:27] Josie: I love that, I love that so much. And I think what a revolutionary thing to do to insist on feeling safe in your body.

[00:46:37] Sean: Whew, that's, woo! Totally, yeah. I mean, it's a journey, I'm 42 years old and I'm still on that journey. I'm still discovering things about myself, places inside myself. It's continual, it's ongoing. 

[00:46:59] Josie: Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. I learned so much and it felt so good to hear all your stories and share this space with you. So thank you so much. 

[00:47:13] Sean: Yeah. I mean, thank you for the invitation. I hope that some of what I shared has been useful, you know? 

[00:47:19] Josie: Yeah. And how can people find you and support you and experience your artwork, past artwork that you've done and all that good stuff?

[00:47:29] Sean: Yeah, if people are on Instagram they can look me up @saifaemerges or @theintersexjusticeproject. And also my first name will probably be spelled out, but I have a website, Seansaifa.com, people can reach out, they can see my artwork and learn about intersex stuff, and they can also visit intersexjusticeproject.org

[00:47:52] Just to see what's happening there. But yeah I encourage people to get in touch. I encourage people to learn about intersex issues and intersex justice. And if people are really committed to change, if people are really committed to dismantling the system of harm then please get in touch with me and see if we can make a difference together. 

[00:48:17] Josie: Cool. I love that. And I'll put all that in the show notes, all links to all that stuff. Thank you so much, Saifa. 

[00:48:27] Sean: No, thank you so much. This has been a really amazing conversation.

[00:48:36] Josie: I am so excited to let you know that Fertile registration is open. Fertile is a queer trans and non-binary centered five week online program for folks with wombs to reclaim power over their fertility journey and conceive using the Whole Self Fertility Method. Health practitioners, you are welcome to join us as well. Head over to intersectional fertility.com/fertile to read the program details and join us. The program starts November 1st. 

[00:49:12] Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz.

[00:49:29] If you like the show and want to hear more, tap subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, and please leave us a review. It really truly helps. The Intersectional Fertility podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and produced by For the Love Media with original music by Jen Korte.

All content offered through The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is created for informational purposes only, it is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.