Episode 3: Is Essence the Same as Gender?

Josie and their fiancée talk about gender, and how it relates to our Essence and creative power. Josie’s gender is Atreyu from The Neverending Story, black leather jackets, and Mexican food.

[ID: Josie and their fiancée, Melissa, lie on their backs on the grass, laughing and holding hands.]

Episode Transcript:

Josie: I'm Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier and this is the Intersectional Fertility podcast. Where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our whole selves.

Josie: So, today I'm really excited to bring on a very special guest. My fiancée, Melissa Komadina. We're going to chat about gender and queer culture and how that relates to fertility, and see where the conversation takes us. So, welcome, Melissa.

Melissa: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Josie: You're so welcome. Tell us your pronouns, what you do in the world and what you'd like to be doing in the world, and any interests or passions or anything about yourself you want us to know.

Melissa: Yes. So, my pronouns are she/her and I am a product designer. So, I design websites and mobile apps, or really anything that needs designing with people in mind.

Josie: Cool.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: And then, what would you like to be doing in the world?

Melissa: Well, I think you know that what I really want to be as retired so I can just do all of my hobbies.

Josie: Yes.

Melissa: But I mean, I really love what I do. I like being able to think about problems and different ways to solve them. But other than that, I really like to climb. So, I really want to spend as much time as I can climbing.

Josie: Totally. And she's a bad-ass climber.

Melissa: Thank you.

Josie: For all you listening. In case you don't know. Any other interests, passions you want to share?

Melissa: Yes. I don't know. Hanging out with you and our dogs.

Josie: Our cute doggies.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: They're so cute.

Melissa: I like to cook.

Josie: Amazing cook.

Melissa: Yes. I like to weightlift.

Josie: Yes.

Melissa: Anything like physical, anything outside.

Josie: Yes. Totally. Okay. I'll answer the same questions.

Melissa: Okay.

Josie: Just for fun.

Melissa: Do you want me ask you?

Josie: Yes. You ask me.

Melissa: Okay. What are your pronouns?

Josie: My pronouns are they/them. Joe.

Melissa: Cool. What do you do?

Josie: What do I do in the world? I'm an acupuncturist and I specialize in fertility.

Melissa: Cool.

Josie: I'm a writer and a parent and yes. Those are my main ones.

Melissa: And then, what would you like to be doing?

Josie: I would like to be doing more writing. That's what I'd like to be doing.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: I really want to write a book.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: So, that's been on the back burner for years. Inching its way up the front burner, hopefully. Yes. I think that's it for mainly... Interests and passions, I know you didn't ask me but I'm like...

Melissa: I was getting there.

Josie:Hanging out with my friends and I miss it.

Melissa: I know.

Josie: And traveling. I miss traveling.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: I'm a big traveler.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: Okay. So...

Melissa: Anyway.

Josie: So, getting on with our convo about gender. So, having spent most of my life in CIS hetero spaces, I can say that gender is not thought about or discussed in the same way as it is in queer culture. If anything, gender, I mean, when it did come up, I feel like it was under the guise of women's rights, if anything. Or feminism, and mainly white feminism.

Melissa: Right.

Josie: In the circles that I was in or am in. So, gender wasn't really thought of as anything to be creative with. It was just more like the air that they breathe, it's like invisible, it's immutable.

Melissa: Right.

Josie: It's the way things have always been. The way things will always be kind of feeling. So, something I noticed as I started hanging out more and more in queer circles was that, gender was talked about more as your essence of who you are and more of in creative terms. Like what's your gender and that could be literally anything. A food, a celebrity, a place in the world, something like that. So, anyway, I've just been really fascinated with how gender can be so creative in queer culture. So, to me that feels like a breath of fresh air. So, I would love to know what sort of things evoke your gender?

Melissa: That's a great question. I mean, as you know, as I mentioned, I'm a very physical person and outdoorsy person. So, I really feel my gender when I'm doing things where I feel strong. So, whether it's lifting or climbing, especially wearing a muscle tank top or something, then I really feel like my most bad-ass self.

Josie: Totally.

Melissa: And I really feel in my gender. I mean, I've kind of jokingly referred to myself as a gentle butch with my friends and I also think that kind of sums it up very well. And that I don't think of myself as particularly tough.

Josie: You look tough though.

Melissa: You think so?

Josie: Yes. You do look tough.

Melissa: But I have such a nice face.

Josie: But you're like tattoos and you're so strong.

Melissa” Yes.

Josie: And you have like short black hair. I think you look really tough.

Melissa: Yes. Thanks. Well, some of that was actually kind of conscious. Because I felt like I should look a little more tough than I do. I've always looked kind of young and had like a very... I'm the person on the street that people would always ask for directions.

Josie: Because you look so friendly and approachable?

Melissa: Yes. I was like, we have to change this.

Josie: To look less approachable.

Melissa: Yes. So, I mean the tattoos and the hair, I don't know. I think it was just trying to look the part a little bit.

Josie: Yes.

Melissa: And part of it, again was stuff that I was very naturally drawn to. I wasn't really just trained to be artificial or anything.

Josie: Right. Totally.

Melissa: To take on something that didn't feel authentic.

Josie: Right, right.

Melissa: So, I don't really get asked for directions anymore. But I mean, I am kind of sensitive, polite little person.

Josie: You are.

Melissa: And very nurturing and stuff. And I really liked that part of my gender that can be kind of tough and masculine in terms of doing physical things. But also a very gushy person too. And not everyone sees that side of me.

Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier: Totally.

Melissa: But it's definitely a big part of who I am as a whole.

Josie: What was that thing that I saw the other day about masculinity doesn't have a gender. It's actually... I think my friend Minaji posted about that on their Instagram. But I thought that really, it was like a light bulb went off for me. I was like, oh yes, masculinity does not have a gender.

Melissa: Right.

Josie: Any gender can have masculine presentations depending on the day or whatever.

Melissa: Totally.

Josie: Yes. I love that. And then something that you said one time was that you wanted to do masculinity better than men.

Melissa: Better than men. Yes. Perennial goal. Yes. For sure. Well, I love that because I think a lot of folks do have masculine qualities regardless of how they identify. But I mean, of course queer culture is more conscious of that and it's more celebrated to be into both your feminine and masculine parts.

Josie: Or neither.

Melissa: Or neither. Yes.

Josie: There's so much nuance.

Melissa: Like you said, these are conversations that you and I, and others have all the time.

Josie: Right.

Melissa: And it's strange when I talk to straight friends and you're like, oh, you're not constantly talking about gender with your husband?

Josie: That's literally all we talk about.

Melissa: Yes. You don't know precisely what your gender is.

Josie: I remember one night you were like, out of the blue, you were like, babe, what's your gender? And I was like, and I thought about it, but like instantly I had this vision of Atreyu, from The Neverending Story.

Melissa: Which I still haven't seen. I just nod.

Josie: We still have to watch that.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: And you're like, ah, yes. Atreyu.

Melissa: Atreyu.

Josie: But anyone who's in their forties might know, remember Neverending Story, Atreyu. That's part of my gender. Another thing I thought was cute when I first met you was, I'm bringing up some oldies.

Melissa: Yes. Remember this time...

Josie: Is what your Bumble profile said. I thought that was a good description of your gender at the time. Do you remember what it said?

Melissa: It said fancy dirt bag.

Josie: Yes.

Melissa: And that was it.

Josie: It was like, swipe right.

Melissa: I don't know what that is.

Josie: I had no idea what a fancy dirtbag is. That sounds intriguing.

Melissa: I mean, I would say I'm not as much of a dirt bag these days, but yes. You know, I like the finer things in life. I like a nice charcuterie board even when I'm roughing it.

Josie: Yes.

Melissa: Camping out.

Josie: Which is why we're together.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: Okay. So, I'm going to answer these questions now too.

Melissa: Okay.

Josie: What my gender is. So, for me, things that evoke my gender are Atreyu, from Never Ending Story. Like I mentioned. Timothy Chamalet really. I feel like I don't even necessarily want to dress like him or be like him, but just how he is in certain... Well movies, I guess, that I've seen. Because obviously, I don't know him as a person.

Melissa: Yes. What do you think... What are the scenes where you're just like, oh yes.

Josie: Yes. I mean, I love, as you know, Call Me By Your Name. That's one of my all time favorite movies. And it just reminded me so much of living in Italy when I used to live there. I think I did feel really close to who I really am when I was living in Italy. I've lived there a couple of times, but the second time when I was on a farm that was very similar. It was an old castle and working organic farm, kind of similar to the one that they are staying in, in that movie. Were they in France? No, they were in Italy right?

Melissa: No. He just spoke French.

Josie: That's right. Okay. Yes. I don't know. It's something about that. I used to be quite lanky, so, I think I feel like an affinity there, even though I'm not as lanky as I used to be. I don't know, he has like kind of a cool air that I want to adopt.

Melissa: He's a little surly.

Josie: He's a little surly. He's a little... Kind of has like an edginess to him that I like and want to aspire to more. I don't know. I just really like... I dig his energy.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: And also, I really dig Charlotte Gainsbourg, her energy.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: She's like my style icon. I just adore her.

Melissa: She's very cool.

Josie: Oh my God. She's so, so cool. And then just in general, other things that kind of evoke my gender for me are poetry, art exhibits, shows. Used to just go to shows all the time growing up.

Melissa: Person about town.

Josie: Yes. Person about town, like city life. You know, like leather boots and a leather jacket, Mexican food cuisine, molé, which is, I think from Oaxaca, South America, traveling. All of those things kind of evoke my gender for me.

Melissa: Right.

Josie:What do you think my gender is?

Melissa: Well, when I think of you, it's like very cool, very cosmopolitan. Yes. You brought up the black leather jacket. That's kind of how I picture you. Just wearing like little cigarette jeans with your black jacket and you're going to some sort of cool art opening where you know the owner or something. It's just like what? Your Denver roots run deep. So, I think about your gender as someone who doesn't really have anything to prove. They're just cool because that's who they are.

Josie: Thanks, babe.

Melissa: But you're also not gross.

Josie: Thank you. I appreciate that.

Melissa: It's well done.

Josie: Good on you.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: Oh, that's cool. Thank you.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: That's sweet. So, all of this conversation kind of that came about between us got sparked after a therapy session that we had. Shout out to Julie.

Melissa: Yes, Julie.

Josie: We have the best therapist in the world and we love her. And we were doing an exercise with her about exploring and personifying our essence. Like the essence of who we are and as we were doing it, it reminded me so much of our gender conversations.

Melissa: Right.

Josie: Which kind of sparked the idea for this podcast episode. And then also, my ears always perk up when I hear the word essence. Because that is the word for fertility in Chinese medicine.

Melissa: Right.

Josie: And so, I always am so interested to hear or learn about or think about other ways of interpreting that word. And so, I really think that by putting two and two together with this conversation, to me, it feels like as a queer person, really exploring your gender really translates to exploring your essence and your fertility and gaining more access to your fertility.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: And being able to create another human, which I think is so cool. So, anyway, that's where kind of the inspo came from for this episode.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: But I wanted to talk a little bit about sun goat.

Melissa: That sun goat was never going to leave that therapy session.

Josie: But sun goat is so cool.

Melissa: I like sun goat. So, sun goat was... Okay. In all honesty, I think I slightly misunderstood the assignment and I had a hard time coming up with the personification or what do they call it when it's the animal?

Josie : Oh yes. What's that word? It's a long word.

Melissa: Yes. Anthropomorph.

Josie: Oh, there you go. You got it.

Melissa: In a sense, but I'm a Capricorn. So, goat. So, I was like all right, goat.

Josie: Right. I'm a goat.

Melissa: Let's go with that. And I like sun. Really, that is so crucial to my happiness.

Josie: Yes.

Melissa: And what do goats do? They just hang out in the mountains, they climb on rocks.

Josie: They're climbers.

Melissa: Yes. They hang out with their buddies and get hugs. And I was like, yes, that's pretty much it. That's really all I need. That's when I feel my most relaxed. That's when I feel my most satisfied is when I'm outside in the mountains with good company and I'm just really enjoying that. That central experience of being outside and then the elements.

Josie: Totally. I love that. I love thinking of you as a sun goat.

Melissa: Do you think it represents me well?

Josie: I do. I do think it represents you well. And I don't know. Yes. I think I can totally see that fitting into your gender also.

Melissa: How so?

Josie: Just like you were saying, things that make you feel... I mean maybe you were talking about things make you feel strong, but I guess sun goat is something, in my eyes, that makes you feel happy. So, to me, that feels like an important aspect of gender.

Melissa: Yes. Because I think another aspect of my personality is kind of Eeyore-y. What is he? Like a donkey or something.

Josie. Yes. He's a sad donkey.

Melissa: Yes. But I feel like goats and donkeys are...

Josie: Similar vibe.

Melissa: Yes. Or just like similar family.

Josie: Yes.

Melissa: Like horses and they're all kind of in that same group of animals.

Josie: Right. All horse-like.

Melissa: Maybe. Somewhere, some zoologist is like, oh my God. No.

Josie: That's funny.

Melissa: So, I think you're right. I think sun goat is kind of the other side of the coin.

Josie: Yes.

Melissa: Of me, of my personality, my gender.

Josie: Maybe more of the softer side.

Melissa: Yes. I feel like it's a little more lighthearted.

Josie: More springy.

Melissa: Sure. Yes.

Josie: Jump around.

Melissa: Totally.

Josie:Yes. What do you feel like kind of getting in terms of... So, most of my focus is fertility. People who want to make babies.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: I know you don't.

Melissa: No. I only want fur babies.

Josie: Yes. Fur babies. But how would that... Sort of tapping into more of your essence of who you are and your gender, help you to really zero in on creating in general? Like creating more of what you want to be doing.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: How do you... Is there a connection there at all for you?

Melissa: I feel like there ought to be.

Josie: Yes.

Melissa: I mean, like you said, as a designer, there's no shortage of problems to solve. I mean, I think I would love to work on things that relate to the environment or outdoor access or recreation. I mean, that would just be very hand-in-glove with where I like to be and what I like to do in my free time.

Josie: Right.

Melissa: I think when I'm really feeding that sun goat part of myself too, that's when I feel the most relaxed and content, which of course is the space you need to be in to create and I can imagine, procreate.

Josie: So true.

Melissa: So, I think that's what it does. I used to live in New York. Everyone in New York is doing something they're hustling, but I don't know. I felt pretty empty when I was living in New York just because it wasn't really feeding that physical outdoor part of myself that's so core to who I am. I think I was learning that at the time too.

Josie: Right.

Melissa: But whereas now, I feel a lot more contentedness.

Josie: Being in Colorado.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: Where it's more sunny.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: More rocks.

Melissa: More rocks. Yes. And then it's just more of the lifestyle too. For sure.

Josie: Totally. That's cool. That makes a lot of sense.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: That's awesome. Yes. I, just to even the score for you, I wanted to bring in my essence, which is Jo.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: So, that you're not the only one.

Melissa: Okay. I'll let you explain Jo as an essence, but I'm also curious, is the essence of Jo any different from your gender or how does it compliment your gender?

Josie: Good question. The essence of Jo. Yes. I feel like Jo... Say that again. What's the question?

Melissa: Okay. Can you describe Jo as an essence?

Josie: Yes. I mean, I guess it's kind of what I was talking about before, where it's kind of like a cool vibe of more of that city life. Kind of.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: I feel like that's where I really thrive and feel comfortable.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: And I like that about my gender.

Melissa Komadina (23:07):        Right.

Josie: That kind of shows up. So, how does it compliment?

Melissa: I mean, would you say it's any different from your gender?

Josie: Jo?

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: I think, yes. Because in one of our therapy assignment was... That that was my essence was Joe and yes, I think it's very similar.

Melissa: So, you kind of understood essence as gender right away?

Josie: I did.

Melissa: Which I didn't.

Josie: That's interesting.

Melissa: Who am I when I'm my best self? That's kind of how I understood it.

Josie: Oh, interesting.

Melissa: But I think it's interesting that you were just like, oh, it's my gender.

Josie: Right. Well, and then isn't your gender, your best self?

Melissa: I mean, it is. I guess I just was thinking what am I when I'm feeling my best?

Josie: Right.

Melissa: Which I mean, like I said before, I feel really good when I'm strong, when I'm wearing little tight band t-shirts like Anthony in Queer Eye. So, I guess for me, they were related, but not necessarily the same.

Josie: Oh, that's so interesting. Because to me, I think I've spent so much time more recently than you, exploring my gender. That, to me, it felt like that's... Why it felt one in the same to me is it was like, oh, well that's like my most expressed self. So, it felt like this has got to be my best self.

Melissa: Right.

Josie: Or my essence. Automatically, I was like, oh, that's like the same thing.

Melissa: Right.

Josie: That's so interesting that you didn't think of that.

Melissa: Yes. But I also think it was very perceptive of you to interpret it that way.

Josie: That's cool.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: We're so different.

Melissa: I was going to say, it's interesting that my little gender is in the mountains and your little gender is in the city and I guess we meet in the suburbs at the end of the day.

Josie: That's cute.

Melissa: Yes.

Josie: All right. I love you.

Melissa: I love you.

Josie: Thanks for coming on my podcast.

Melissa: Is that it?

Josie: Yes, we're done.

Melissa: Okay.

Josie: Donezo.

Melissa: Tidy.

Josie: Yes.

Melissa: Thanks babe.

Josie: To celebrate our launch and thank all of you, amazing folks joining this community, we're doing a giveaway. So, this is how it will work. Leave a written review of the Intersectional Fertility podcast on your favorite podcast platform before 11:59 PM, mountain time on Saturday, April 17th. Five lucky winners will be announced on our next podcast on April 24th and they'll each receive an Intersectional Fertility mug. Good luck.

Josie: Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility podcast. You can find us online at intersectionalfertility.com and on your favorite podcast platform. If you like the show and want to hear more, tap subscribe. And please consider leaving us a review. It really truly helps. The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, with audio production by Bryce Anderson-Gregson and music by Jen Korte.

All content offered through The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is created for informational purposes only, it is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.