Episode 28 - Dr. Sand Chang: Queer Body Liberation and Eating Disorder Recovery

Dr. Sand Chang (they/them) is a Chinese American, gender fluid and non binary trauma informed psychologist. In today's conversation, Josie and Dr. Sand discuss the importance of body liberation specifically for trans health, and how diet culture can impact those who are trying to conceive.

Content Warning: This episode discusses Eating Disorders.

[ID:  A beige background and orange semi-circle. Text reads: The Intersectional Fertility Podcast Episode 28: Dr. Sand Chang @heydrsand and Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier @intersectionalfertility.]

Follow Dr. Sand on Instagram, and check out their website and online courses.

Episode transcript:

Disclaimer: This is an automatically generated transcript edited to be more readable. It may not be 100% accurate.

[00:00:00] Josie: I'm Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier, and this is the Intersectional Fertility Podcast where ideas and identities intersect to deepen our understanding of fertility and ultimately our whole selves.

[00:00:33] Dr. Sand Chang is a Chinese American gender fluid, non-binary psychologist and trauma informed DEI consultant, residing on unseated Ohlone land, also known as Oakland, California. They are a certified body trust provider, certified IFS therapist, and certified EMDR therapist. Their career has been dedicated to body liberation, specifically with regards to trans health, eating disorders, and trauma recovery. 

[00:01:07] Outside of work, Sand is a punoff competitor, food top, and smoosh-faced dog enthusiast.

[00:01:23] Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Sand. 

[00:01:25] Dr. Sand: Thank you so much for having me, Josie. I really appreciate the invitation. 

[00:01:29] Josie: Absolutely. So will you share with us your pronouns and where and the world you're joining us from today? 

[00:01:36] Dr. Sand: Yeah. My pronouns are they them, and I am living on unseated Ohlone land, also known as Oakland, California.

[00:01:43] Josie: Cool. And I would love to hear the story, that led you to become a trauma therapist. 

[00:01:51] Dr. Sand: Yeah, that's a good question. I don't think I was intentionally trying to become a trauma therapist, and when I was in training to be a therapist, there wasn't an assumption that therapist needed to actually be equipped to deal with trauma.

[00:02:05] In fact, a lot of therapists were like, I don't work with trauma. And I didn't kind of consciously think I wanted to work with trauma. But in the things that I was drawn to, it led me to have to learn skills in dealing with trauma. So things like eating disorders, anything related to trans health, gender, sexuality, relationships.

[00:02:29] I mean, all of those things have so many, are so deeply affected by trauma, not just individually, but interpersonally, culturally, systemically, and being a non-binary person of color, working within my own communities, working with other BIPOC trans folks, non-binary folks. Of course living in a world that doesn't really affirm who you are rates of trauma are gonna be a lot higher.

[00:02:56] Not cause they're inherent to someone's identity, but because of experiences in the world and experiences of being told that. Either being told that it's not okay to be you, or experiencing violence. 

[00:03:11] Josie: Yeah, totally. And yeah, I was just, as you're speaking, I was thinking, I feel like everything needs to be trauma informed.

[00:03:20] Dr. Sand: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, trauma is so pervasive. And having a body requires interacting with other people and other bodies. And yeah, I absolutely agree. Everything has to be trauma informed and I think in the field, there's still, in the field of psychology that I'm in, there's still a way in which therapists learn specific modalities to treat trauma. 

[00:03:47] So trauma specific treatments, and still can be not trauma informed. So, you know, I'm trained as an EMDR therapist. I'm training in somatic experiencing, and then my main approach is internal family systems, or IFS. 

[00:04:01] And all of those are really wonderful tools for treating trauma. But the ways in which people are taught to use these modalities are not always coming from a trauma informed lens. And I think a lot of times still operating on this idea that the client or the person that you're working with is, you know, white not disabled neurotypical, straight, cis.

[00:04:28] All of those things. And so a lot of that education doesn't actually teach therapists to be trauma informed, including different aspects of what it means to be trauma informed. Like around touch, around consent, around understanding the ways that systemic oppression affects people and how that shows up in a power dynamic within a setting, interpersonally or in a class setting. Or with clients. And so, yeah, I feel really passionate about being able to bring more of that awareness to people who are healthcare providers. 

[00:05:02] Josie: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's fascinating to think about that. Even trauma techniques are not taught through a trauma informed lens. That's bananas.

[00:05:13] Dr. Sand: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is bananas. It's unacceptable, actually. When someone entrusts us to work with their trauma, with their system, they wanna know that they can come in and not get harmed further. You know, they would like to have a safe place to be able to work through the aspects of their experience that have not been safe.

[00:05:37] And so it's even worse when someone tries to work with a practitioner who really isn't trauma informed and then it's just adding more and more trauma. And can actually be really detrimental because that can lead someone to say it didn't work right. Or what's the point? When really there is so much possibility for being able to heal trauma in the right context with the right person, or the right communities.

[00:06:02] Josie: Totally. And I would imagine too, that like taking into account multiple oppressed identities and the intersection of that is also just not taught in schools. 

[00:06:14] Dr. Sand: Yeah, it's not taught. And if it is, it's fairly kind of coming from that very I don't know, outdated, multicultural lens. Of, keep in mind people have these identities, but let's not talk about systemic oppression and violence and how it might show up right here. Like in our interaction, not just out there in the world. 

[00:06:38] So I think therapists can really bypass that part of it. And just be like, I'm an ally. I'm gonna help you with all these things you're experiencing out in the world. Rather than, let me look at my own privilege. Let me look at the ways in which I'm enacting harm. 

[00:06:52] Josie: Yep, totally. Ugh, so important. And so I'm wondering more specifically, What drew you to specialize in body liberation and trans health and eating disorders?

[00:07:06] Dr. Sand: Yeah, so when I, when I first got interested in doing eating disorders work, I really didn't have a lens around what this, I didn't have a body liberation lens. I was, you know, doing my dissertation in the early two thousands and I was interested in eating disorders and I am out about being in recovery for my own eating disorders.

[00:07:28] And so it was just something that I had this kind of pull to do that work. And I knew that there was something that was limited in the ways that our, of like mainstream systems of psychology and psychiatry like that, you know, the DSM were framing eating disorders. I knew there were limitations and I was really interested in all the people who are suffering from disordered eating who don't meet full criteria according to the DSM. 

[00:07:55] And I knew that there was something cultural, something gender related about it, but I really didn't have like a lens at that point to really think about it in the ways that intersects with white supremacy, colonialism, anti-blackness. And so, yeah, I was interested in eating disorders.

[00:08:14] I also really delved into trans health again, you know, because of my own experiences, identities and communities and wanting to work within my communities. And I think I started to realize that there was this theme in all of my work, which is really wanting people to feel safe in their bodies.

[00:08:35] And to feel liberated and through that work. I've gotten to just be exposed to a lot of great people doing the work who have really helped me to widen my lens so that I could move away from my traditional training and looking at people as individuals and really looking at people more in context.

[00:08:54] I mean, it's something I've always been interested in, but it wasn't until I think, probably the past five years that I started to connect the dots and really understand more about even the intersections of disordered eating and living in a body that society really just can't tolerate. And not just can't tolerate, but is actively violent toward. So, so yeah, I mean, I think just overarching concept of body liberation is what I'm interested in. And then it might look different ways for different people. 

[00:09:30] Josie: Mm-hmm totally. Have you come across as, I feel like current information that's available, is being made now? You know that that is very progressive, very radical, very inclusive, and taking into account all these different intersections. It's like there's no book on this stuff, you know what I mean? It's like for me it's been social media where I've found a lot of this information. Do you feel that way as well?

[00:09:58] Dr. Sand: Yeah. I talk about this a lot actually. Is. If I'm gonna look at where I wanna find the most radical or progressive or badass work being done, whether it's trans health, or disordered eating, or anything else, really I'm looking toward people who are creating new possibility models. I'm not looking toward academia, I'm not giving research that reverence that it has gotten traditionally.

[00:10:25] Mainstream fields of trans health and eating disorders are really steeped in colonialist, white supremacist, and as well as like very steeped in like global north framework. And so that's not where I look, and I look towards people who are not necessarily "experts," right? They don't have letters after their name.

[00:10:48] They're not, you know, deeply involved with the academy, right? I would agree that a lot of really interesting messaging and developments are happening within social media and I do feel conflicted about social media. It's really complicated and I really, at this point, I'm taking kind of a big break from it.

[00:11:09] Just cause from my own wellbeing. But I do think that I've learned a ton from people because social media is also a place where people with lived experience who don't have access to certain platforms, aren't given access to certain platforms, can share. And that is really, that's like just so important to hear from people with lived experience.

[00:11:30] Josie: Yeah, totally. I find that too that I'm looking more towards folks with lived experience and also like community workers, who don't have, you know, like you said, like all the titles and the letters after the names. 

[00:11:46] Dr. Sand: Yeah, there's so much wisdom in community. And I think maybe we're at a time where there's more access to hearing these stories, these voices. And they've always existed. So we've always existed. And so, you know, I really, coming from a place of immense privilege and being able to maybe move through academic circles or being someone who, you know, with the letters after my name, and publishing all of that stuff. I move through that world and I don't really feel like I learn a lot there and I don't expand and so I really see it as my responsibility like ethically and just as a person, who cares about justice, to really take a step back and try to listen to community voices. 

[00:12:41] Josie: Yeah, totally. I totally agree. So I'm interested in a few things. A ton of different aspects of that. But how does healing from diet culture, specifically from eating disorders relate to trans and non-binary folks differently? Than to cis folks. 

[00:13:00] Dr. Sand: I mean, I don't wanna say that it's like this for everyone. But I will say some of the general themes that I've encountered in my work, and maybe I can speak to from my own personal or lived experience is that, the more traditional framework around eating disorders only really looks at, hey, here's someone who has a body and they don't think their body looks good like these other bodies.

[00:13:28] So they're going to engage in some kind of disordered eating. And that is definitely part of the experience, but it's an oversimplified one, and it's one that doesn't take into accounts these really deep contexts and histories around how diet culture actually began, how it's rooted in anti-blackness and colonialism.

[00:13:51] And how it's not just a body trying to be like another body. It's specifically white bodies and those who are invested in the kind of power when you assimilate or have proximity to whiteness. Like actively trying to move away from having a black or a brown body, or a fat body. 

[00:14:15] And so there's a lot of eating disorders, treatment that doesn't even acknowledge how much anti-fat is embedded. It's like even in eating disorders treatment, when someone is underweight through restriction or anorexia, they're told they need to go, you know, restore their weight.

[00:14:34] But there's often this messaging of, but not too much. So we don't wanna want you to go over to that other end. And so there's a lot of fatphobia in the eating disorders field. Yeah and to heal from diet culture, we have to be looking at, you know what, what do we mean when we say diet culture is shorthand, right?

[00:14:58] Like in some ways it's very important for us to call out diet culture. And in other ways it's kind of a watered down way of talking about these other systems of oppression: ableism, anti-fat, anti-blackness. And, you know, healing from, from diet culture in the context of those systems means that the environment has to change to support you.

[00:15:22] And most eating disorders, treatment settings are not equipped to support anyone who isn't white, cis, all of the things, all kind of have those dominant culture identities and privileges. 

[00:15:38] Josie: Right. So I'm wondering too, like part of that like dominant culture body ideal would also be maybe enhanced by cis hetero beauty standards or relationship ideals. That kind of thing. 

[00:15:53] Dr. Sand: Yeah, I think that's part of it. I think there's a lot that is about, Wanting to have a body that fits or feels aligned for you. And I think it's more than that for a lot of people. Cause what's behind that? It's not just about aesthetics.

[00:16:11] It's about safety. It's about how you're moving in the world and the difference between someone reading you one way versus another based on the shape and the size of your body. So that safety piece is left out. The piece around food insecurity is left out. I mean, just the ways in which people, there's an assumption in eating disorders treatment that everyone has access.

[00:16:36] And if we just taught them the right skills, they would be able to access food and exercise and health. All these things that actually aren't available to everyone. Or aren't those material resources, financial resources or access to the kinds of care that people need, whether it's medical care or specific eating disorders treatment.

[00:16:59] Josie: Right. Yeah. And then it's almost like it puts the choice on the person who's seeking treatment, where it's like it might not be up to them. 

[00:17:08] Dr. Sand: Yeah, exactly. It's really bypassing accountability in those settings. And You know, I see this a lot. If a treatment setting isn't the right fit, it's very easy to say, oh, well, the person was non-compliant.

[00:17:25] Or they have too much trauma. They got too dysregulated when people misgender them in treatment settings. I mean, there's just like all of that, right? That really is about blaming individuals. 

[00:17:40] Josie: Yeah, totally. I'm wondering too, for queer and trans folks with eating disorders who are trying to conceive or would like to conceive. Do you think that that body liberation journey is possible? 

[00:17:55] Dr. Sand: Absolutely. Yeah, I do. I do, and it, and it looks different for different people. Is really complicated. I'll just say it's really complicated to talk about fertility, family building, trying to conceive, all of these things in the context of trans health specifically because of not just long histories, but present day practices of forced sterilization.

[00:18:22] And so there's echoes of that that feed into whether or not people feel that family building is accessible to them. As well as a lack of role models for what that might look like. I mean, now I think there's more visibility and there are people talking more about queer and, you know, I think Queer Family Building has, has been around longer in a more visible way, but specifically trans folks who are either trying to conceive or going through some kind of assisted reproduction right. To, to build a family. 

[00:18:55] And yeah, I think that body liberation is possible, but there's a good deal of carving out and doing labor to be able to build a system that is supportive. Because fertility clinics or ob gyn departments, some of them are doing better than others, but for the most part, This is a very traumatizing experience for a lot of queer and trans folks.

[00:19:23] It is moving into a space that is not created for us. And in such a vulnerable moment, like so vulnerable to be going in and, it's invasive, it's so private, it's related to one's body in just such vulnerable ways. And so those power dynamics, I think maybe people who work in those settings aren't really thinking about them that much.

[00:19:51] They're like, next, next patient. And so when a queer or trans person comes in and they need something different, systems are not always flexible, or don't have the education needed to be able, or the systems in place needed to be able to make that a positive experience. And so it's a hard thing to be wanting to do something like build your family.

[00:20:17] And do something that feels, you know, ideally expansive and beautiful. And at the same time be going through a trauma experience.

[00:20:30] Yeah, 

[00:20:30] Josie: totally. And how do you think folks can start that body liberation journey? 

[00:20:35] Dr. Sand: I mean, one thing that maybe I can speak to concretely is that a lot of what's out there around family building trying to conceive is really limited and really reinforces a very cishet norm, and white Norm. And it's something I've been wanting to talk and write more about is the ways that diet culture, and trying to conceive culture are so, Intertwined. 

[00:21:04] And so if you talk to anyone who's been in a trying to conceive process and they're trying to access information about what they should or shouldn't be doing to increase their chances of getting pregnant or being more fertile, those folks will inevitably come across, A lot of you should do this. You shouldn't do that. You should eat this. You should cut this out. This is bad. 

[00:21:25] And it's so individualistic. And it's so like, it's really horrible the ways that, it kind of creates this illusion of control that's actually not there. There are so many factors that go into whether or not someone can conceive or carry. 

[00:21:45] And again, I'm not an OBGYN doctor, so I don't wanna say that I know everything about this. I do have a lot of experience navigating these systems. Both with and for my clients as well as my own personal lived experience. And so, you know, that's something that I, you know, am starting to talk more freely about.

[00:22:08] Josie: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. How intertwined those two things would be and how it could be triggering for someone to hear what they should and shouldn't eat. 

[00:22:20] Dr. Sand: And for someone who has a history of disordered eating, that is a really dangerous place. To be able to justify it through the lens of, well, I have to because I'm trying to get pregnant.

[00:22:34] Right. And you know, your question was really how can people start that? I think looking for resources, looking for people who are outside of these mainstream. You know, system situations. Yeah. And looking for people that will affirm your experience. So whether it's looking for other queer and trans folks who are in a family building space.

[00:23:02] There's been a lot of great resources over the years that I think have been very necessary for people in my communities. What you're doing, this podcast, being able to talk about intersectional fertility. So cool. So yeah, it's so important because there's far more out there. You go to these like weird websites. So strange, it's a very strange, strange world in there.

[00:23:37] Josie: Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. That's something that that I've been really aware of too is when I, cuz I, as an acupuncturist, I recommend, you know, foods a lot and what to eat in terms of, you know, bringing certain things back into balance. And it's like, oh, I have to really be very careful. About how I suggest that. 

[00:24:00] Dr. Sand: Yeah. Because it can come across as, yeah this is good, this is bad. If you do this, you'll get pregnant. If you don't, you won't get pregnant and just, you know, all like warm foods, cold foods, do this, do that, you know?

[00:24:15] Right. There's a lot there, and there I understand, you know, that there's wisdom and tradition and a lot of experience behind a lot of these ideas, and at the same time, when we bring it to present day context, how do we balance that and not increase the amount of stress that someone is going through in trying to conceive. 

[00:24:38] Josie: Yes, yes. Totally. Yeah. You're right, there's so many factors. It's like you don't wanna give the message that you know, this is gonna make or break. Your chance, yeah. That can be so problematic. Yeah. And when I give recommendations to my patients, I always frame it, I'm like, Please, this shouldn't be more stressful, you know, like adding to the stress of what you're already going through. Like to use it as a guideline or, yeah. 

[00:25:11] Dr. Sand: Yeah. And I think for queer and trans folks who are typically using assisted reproduction, a lot of the time, not always, but a lot of the time using assisted reproduction and having to go outside of their homes in order to go through this process from the very beginning. It's just so important that people know that, that they have a right to have a safer, a better experience than they're often given. 

[00:25:42] I think a lot of times people are just like, This system is shitty and I just have to go through this. I have to survive this. And that's such a hard thing, a hard place to be when you're trying to be in a more generative space. 

[00:25:55] Josie: Yeah, totally. Yeah. When I first reached out to you to be on the podcast, you'd mentioned that you'd like to share about your own experiences with the intersection of trying to conceive and gender and eating disorders. What would you like to share with us? 

[00:26:09] Dr. Sand: Gosh, that's a big question. So I, you know, maybe I'll just preface this and say that, you know, I've been sitting on this question for the past five years. I'm very out as someone who is in recovery from disordered eating and has been for a long time.

[00:26:29] I have not been as public about my own experience of trying to conceive and just what that experience did in my life and kind of flipped it. Like, flipped a lot of things upside down for me. And you know, it's not, it's not always an easy thing to talk about, but I have really been kind of sitting on this question of how do I talk about it in a way that might be helpful to other people?

[00:26:54] Because I don't think that there's a lot of people who are talking about eating disorders and trying to conceive culture and diet culture and you know, I certainly didn't have awareness of anything like that. I still don't know that there's a lot out there on this topic, and so it's something that I've been wanting to think and talk more about.

[00:27:14] And then specifically what it means to be moving through and accessing these spaces as a person of color, as a queer person, as a non-binary person. And there were so many experiences that I had that really added to stress and trauma in my system. And, you know, thing, you know, I was going through this with my former partner who, you know, we were trying to navigate these systems together as two trans and non-binary folks, and it was.

[00:27:45] Just pretty horrendous dealing with health systems. Some were better than others, but it was just it's like kind of like having to brace yourself every time you're interacting with these medical providers or these systems, and the ways in which like race and gender and the ways in which we were different, and accessing these spaces are read differently. 

[00:28:10] There was a lot of fascination about my partner who was a white trans person, white transmasculine person. And so there was like tons of fascination with him that we were encountering and I was like, ah, I'm the one that's trying to get pregnant here.

[00:28:23] So there was that, there was the, you know, perpetual misgendering a ways in which, you know, I'm kind of a person of extremes, so, when I set my mind on something, I really am like, I'm gonna get that thing which is kind of intense.

[00:28:40] And I'm like, where did I get all this? I know there's lots of different sources for that, but like I got really intense about all the things I should or shouldn't be doing. And I actually went into eating disorders relapse and restriction because of it. I had so many rules. I was like, don't drink cold water, don't have raw fruit.

[00:28:59] Like all these really intense things that actually came out of, you know, some of the instruction I was getting from Chinese medicine practitioners. So there was a lot there and there was a lot that, in retrospect,that time in my life, I was really going into a pretty serious trauma vortex.

[00:29:19] And so it's taken me years to be able to really talk about it. You know, I talk about it with friends and people in my life, but to talk about it more publicly and to want to support folks, especially trans folks, people of color with disordered eating who are kind of going through this very intense experience of family building.

[00:29:40] And, you know, in that process, needing to make sure that you're taking good, like the best possible care of your body when there are a lot of forces that make it hard to do that. 

[00:29:49] Josie: Yeah. Totally. Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us. I think it is so important and it's not, I feel like it's not talked about at all. I don't hear about this anywhere. 

[00:30:01] Dr. Sand: Yeah. I mean, there's layers and layers. I gave you the short version, right, but there's layers and layers of that. And I mean, I feel so strongly about helping and supporting other trans and non-binary folks in trying to conceive. 

[00:30:16] It's, yeah. I mean, and you know, at this point I don't really feel like I have regrets about that experience. But I do feel like I like learned a lot and if there's some way that my experience can benefit others. That's what I want. 

[00:30:31] Josie: Right, right. And I'm wondering, as a practitioner of Chinese medicine, what would be the best way for, would it be best to not recommend food recommendations, do you think?

[00:30:43] Dr. Sand: Honestly, I think it depends. I would try to do an assessment of someone's history with restriction or rule-based eating. To really get a sense, because I think intuitive eating or really like listening to one's body, is so important at that time.

[00:31:03] And so I, I do think for a lot of people, Probably not the best thing to get a list of, hey, stick to these foods and avoid these foods. Right. Cause it really can increase that like rule based disordered eating mentality. So, you know, I'm personally not a fan of that. I'm definitely more a fan of, hey, listen to your body.

[00:31:28] Listen to what it's telling you in terms of what it needs. When you eat food, ask yourself how did that taste? Did it taste good and how does it make me feel? You know, just some basic questions instead of like, oh, you should have this. I mean, I had cut out so many food groups by the time, I was actually going into an IVF process that like, I think I was really not very nourished. 

[00:31:54] And I thought that I was. Like, oh, I'm doing all these really great things and cleansing my body and doing acupuncture and doing all these like gazillion things. Yeah. And so Yeah, definitely more err on this, not err, but like really kind of move towards that practice of really listening. Or, trusting, really trusting one's body. Yes. Oh no, that's hard to do because not all of us feel like we can trust our bodies. 

[00:32:21] Josie: Right. I know. This is such I'm rethinking all, everything I've ever done. In a really good way. Yeah, this is so helpful. Yeah, I would, I would love to add that in to my process of just, of figuring out what someone's background is on that.

[00:32:40] Dr. Sand: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think there are some pretty fairly easy or simple questions that could be asked to screen. And I mean, even without a eating disorder's history, though, I think really just helping people to kind of understand what it means to listen to one's body. 

[00:33:00] Cuz even people without eating disorders, because they live in diet culture, are gonna be like, what do I do? And like there are some things that I think are more common, right? Like cut out caffeine, everyone cut out caffeine now. But then there's other things that are like, Is this actually going to be helpful for you?

[00:33:17] You cannot possibly cut out every single thing that creates inflammation in your life. And the fact is, is that so much of what causes inflammation in our bodies and in our lives are actually not based on individual health choices are based on what our environments are exposing us to.

[00:33:34] So, you know, I think, again, it kind of creates that illusion of control and then, when people are not able to achieve what they want. Whether it's, oh, I wanna lose weight, which is, you know, not really a possibility for a lot of people in a sustainable way, or trying to conceive, you know, when that's not possible, then people blame themselves.

[00:33:55] Josie: Totally, totally. And it's like when you're depending on someone else to tell you what to eat and when not to eat, it's like then you're giving up your own power too. 

[00:34:04] Dr. Sand: Oh yeah. Yeah. And it's very like heady. Yeah. It's like, what should I have? What should I be in the mood for right now? I could eat that cuz it has a lot of, you know, omega-3 fatty acids.

[00:34:17] And not to say that there isn't something to nutrition, you know, there's to be nourished and also the preoccupation with that, the orthorexia, the healthism embedded in all that is actually, you know, often really more detrimental than just listening to What do you feel like? What does your body need right now? Yep. 

[00:34:40] Josie: Yep. And taking the value off of food of like, this is good or bad. 

[00:34:45] Dr. Sand: Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. The moralism, and I mean, a lot of that, you know, just name that idea of like clean eating, clean foods. I mean, that is so steeped in colonialism. Right, cleaning up someone's diet. So that, you know, just. I think that's so pervasive in our society, and even folks who are like radical, you know still are very susceptible to these ideas of treating your body like a temple. 

[00:35:16] And you know, like that's not bad, but like Yeah. But it's like the perfectionism. There is so much perfectionism involved in I'm taking care of my body and this is what it needs to look like and this is what it needs to look like for everyone then. 

[00:35:31] Josie: Totally. I learned so much from you. I think it was last summer I took one of your courses, I'm forgetting the name of it, but it was something like healing from oppressions of diet culture or something like that. 

[00:35:46] Something I learned from you, which has really stuck with me is the history of that clean eating versus like, like dirty eating, can be, you know, like a lot of times like how like indigenous culture like foods were looked at and could you speak a little bit about that? 

[00:36:04] Dr. Sand: Yeah. I mean, those words like clean and dirty are so loaded. They're not, it's not just hygiene or the food of something. It's, you know that there is this history of settlers coming to this land and deciding that, you know, the ways that indigenous folks were eating was dirty.

[00:36:28] And that their foods need to be cleaned up. And not just foods like customs and ways of relating and genders and gender expressions. Like all these ways that, you know, there was this mentality around we need to teach people the right way to be and to exist. 

[00:36:47] And there was this fear that if the white settlers, if they ate foods, indigenous folks, foods, that they would become more like indigenous people. So that fear really, you know, was a lot of that motivations. It's like that terror, right? And that fear, so, Really wanting to teach people like how to eat, like, you know, like we eat like properly.

[00:37:17] Right. Yeah. So, and we can see how echoes of that are so pervasive in all sorts of things such as even eating disorders treatment or school lunch programs or like all the places where people are taught like health or nutrition. That is actually not objective. And you know, typically these approaches are not culturally responsive or sensitive. They're just, you know, very limited and narrow. 

[00:37:49] Josie: Yeah, totally. Ever since I took that course from you, I've been thinking, I always watch my language around using even like the word healthy for foods or, ways of being. Yeah. 

[00:38:02] Dr. Sand: Yeah. I mean, we can't, I don't. I don't know that it's that we could avoid the word health. Right, like the ways that we're talking about different mental health, emotional health, physical health. But I think the word healthy. Is really different, like what that means, needs to be understood as different for different people. And there isn't one way to be healthy. 

[00:38:24] Josie: Right. It's not the, yeah, it's not like a defined term that means the same to everybody.

[00:38:29] Dr. Sand: And also, you know, like we've been talking about like the moralism around that. Like, You know, there's a lot of mentality, like messaging around like, oh, well, you know like very anti-fat messages. Like, okay, well you can be fat as long as you're healthy, right? Like, as long as you're like eating healthy or you're exercising, then you can be fat, right?

[00:38:52] Like all of this. That's about or like, oh, what's wrong with that person? They're not taking care of their health. Like, there's a lot of judgment. There's so much. And so, yeah. I am someone who likes to take care of my body in certain ways. But it's not about like, oh, I need to achieve some other person's standard of health.

[00:39:12] Right. And think about health is measured in these ways that are supposedly objective, but are incredibly flawed and subjective and biased, like the BMI. 

[00:39:22] Josie: Like BMI. Yeah, totally, totally. I was thinking about a friend of mine who uses the word with her little boy, she says it's time to have some growing food instead of healthy food. And I was like, oh, I love that reframe of just like, yeah, this food helps our body grow. 

[00:39:42] Dr. Sand: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. I've never heard that. Yeah. I mean, that's a whole nother. Field of like, how do we raise. Not me, but how do, how does one raise like children? To have, you know, a more attuned or less fraught, let's say, relationships with food and, there's some good work being done on like how to raise intuitive eaters or. Helping kids to really listen instead of take on all these diet culture rules. 

[00:40:16] Josie: Yeah. Totally. Totally. Yeah. I love something that I'm taking away from this conversation is an important thing to ask yourself or to ask someone is like, how did that feel? To really tune into your body and ask what it wants and Yeah.

[00:40:33] Dr. Sand: And I just wanna say about that, that that's, not necessarily an easy thing to do. In a body that's traumatized, that doesn't always feel safe, that you don't fully trust all the time. It's not as easy as like, oh, just listen to your body. Like, it'll tell you what it needs, and that's the ideal.

[00:40:53] But you know, most of us have been very disconnected. From being able to access, what I really believe is like, most of us were born with some capacity to listen. And it gets taught out of us like, we unlearn it. It gets, let's say like shaded over by the rights and the wrongs and the goods and the bads.

[00:41:18] So I get it that it's not that easy, but I do think that it's a practice that can be developed. But first we have to be willing to discard all these really misguided notions of what it means to have a good body. 

[00:41:32] Josie: Yeah. It's, it's a process of unlearning. One of the favorite, my favorite places where I've been unlearning is the maintenance phase podcast.

[00:41:40] Dr. Sand: Oh my gosh, I love it so much. I love them so much. It's, yeah, it's brilliant. I am such a huge fan. I often am recommending that podcast cuz it's just so well done. It's brilliant, it's hilarious. Like I learned so much and it just, yeah. Big fan. 

[00:41:59] Josie: Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Oh, cool. So, a question that I love to ask all my guests is as listeners know, I teach that the, more that we're able to become connected to our essence or Our Whole Self, who we really are, the more access we have to our fertile potential or creative power.

[00:42:20] Do you have any personal practices or rituals in place that allow you to connect with the essence of who you are or your Whole Self? 

[00:42:27] Dr. Sand: Feels like a big question. I mean, you know, I'll say probably what I practice, I have my own spiritual practice, my own meditation practice, and that is something that I rely on to be able to return to myself.

[00:42:50] Or recognize when I'm abandoning myself. So I would say that's really important. And then the other practice that's so prominent in my life, and it's, it's part of my work but it's very much part of my life practice. The Internal Family systems model. Oh, cool. So as an IFS therapist, you know, yeah.

[00:43:11] It's part of my work, but it's very much how I relate to myself and how I relate to my own embodiment. And befriending of myself and returning to a sense of groundedness in who I am. And that is through being able to listen within to the different parts of me that need. My care and my connection. And so, so yeah, that's, that's a huge part of my life and my practice at this point. 

[00:43:46] Josie: Oh, oh, I love that. I don't know much about internal family systems practice. Is it like, kind of from what you just described, is it like an internal, like you have different relationships within yourself? 

[00:43:57] Dr. Sand: Yeah. Yeah. So internal family systems or IFS is, is a therapy model. It's not a perfect one. Like, it's imperfect like anything else, you know? So I wanna just say that. And it is about you know, there are some embedded in assumptions in this is that we all have multiplicity. And something I like about that is that there I have a lot of aspects of identity that are not necessarily, you know, Congruent or consistent all the time.

[00:44:27] There's this recognition that we don't have to be, you know, one consistent being right. That there are these different parts of us that if we are able to listen to them and work with them and help them, that we can find a sense of inner harmony and not be so taken over by certain parts at certain times.

[00:44:50] So like the, it's hard. It's kind of hard to explain, but the idea is that, maybe one way to think about it is that I am a loving, you know, witness to these different parts of me that really need my care. So some people might think of it as reparenting. People might think of it as like inner child work, but in IFS there's like many, many children, inner children and young parts in there.

[00:45:16] So yeah, and that's something that I have just started teaching to other queer and trans therapists, which is really delightful and like so beautiful and magical to have that space. To learn this practice in a space that's not cis or white dominated. 

[00:45:33] Josie: Yes. Oh, that sounds incredible. I wanna look into that more.

[00:45:36] Dr. Sand: Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm definitely like all about it, like all the time, but also I know that it's not, you know, some people might get sick of me talking about it. I'm really into it. 

[00:45:47] Josie: I love it because it makes room for all your different sides. Like, I'm picturing like a faceted gem, you know, where it's just like, it's not just one whole self.

[00:45:57] Dr. Sand: And it honors that there might be a part of me that feels a certain way, but there's another part of me that feels a different way.

[00:46:03] And it's valuable to listen to all of it, right? You know, in all of us, we say all parts, welcome. And so, you know, I mean, let, let me just bring it back to an eating disorders context right? It's like a lot of traditional treatment with eating disorders or addictions is, oh, this eating disorder is out to kill me, or My addiction is out to get me.

[00:46:25] It really characterizes. That part of someone as bad and destructive. When in fact, so many of the things that may look destructive on the outside and yes may create some real problems in someone's life are actually forms of survival and that these parts are actually trying to help us. To cope and get through.

[00:46:44] And I'm so grateful for my eating disorder. I'm so grateful for my addictions that I've been in recovery from, because without them I would not have been able to survive certain points. And I wouldn't be the person that I am today. So, you know, it really is about embracing and recognizing in a much more strength based way. Rather than, This is bad. I need to kill off this part of me. 

[00:47:06] Josie: Wow. That is so powerful. I just got goosebumps. That is so powerful. It's, it's like, yeah, it's like the opposite of, you know, feeling like I need to, you know, quote unquote heal from this or cut that part of myself off. But it's almost like just feeling thankful for that part of yourself that got you through . Difficult times. Yeah. 

[00:47:33] Dr. Sand: Yeah, sometimes it may seem extreme. But maybe those are times when extreme measures were necessary. 

[00:47:41] Josie: Totally, totally. You're brilliant. Thank you so much. 

[00:47:46] Dr. Sand: Thanks for having me. 

[00:47:46] Josie: Of course. How can people find you and support you and sign up for all your things? 

[00:47:53] Dr. Sand: Yeah, I do some social media.

[00:47:56] I'm on Instagram, it's, @heydrsand. I've been pretty quiet recently cuz I've been tired. I do teach some, I have some online courses and you can find them through my website. I'm kind of between websites, right now, I'm like making this transition. So you know, my website is sandchang.com, but eventually it's moving to shiftingcenter.com.

[00:48:18] Okay. And so, yeah, those are some ways that people can find me. 

[00:48:21] Josie: Okay, perfect. And I'll include all that in the show notes as well. Well, thanks again Dr. Sand so much. I learned so much. I know our listeners learned so much. 

[00:48:31] Dr. Sand: Yeah. Thank you so much, Josie. I really appreciate being able to to meet with you.

[00:48:36] Josie: Absolutely,

[00:48:40] Y'all. I'm so excited to let you know that Fertile registration is open. Fertile is a queer, trans, and non-binary centered five week online program for folks with wombs to reclaim power over their fertility journey and conceive using my Whole Self Fertility Method.

[00:48:59] Healthcare practitioners and community workers, you are welcome to join us and become certified in the Whole Self Fertility Method. Head over to intersectionalfertility.com/fertile to check out all the program details and register now. Sliding Scale is available for all, and scholarships are available for Black, Indigenous, and people of the global majority. Join us! It's gonna be so much fun. I'll see you there.

[00:49:27] Thanks for listening to the Intersectional Fertility Podcast. To get customized fertility recommendations based on your Whole Self Fertility Method element, join my mailing list at intersectionalfertility.com and get immediate access to my two minute quiz. If you like the show and wanna hear more, tap subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and please leave us a review.

[00:49:51] It really truly helps. The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is hosted by me, Josie Rodriguez-Bouchier and produced by Rozarie Productions with original music by Jen Korte.

All content offered through The Intersectional Fertility Podcast is created for informational purposes only, it is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.